Improvising in a trio

[Nylonstring]

Great thread topic. This is stuff I think a lot about. Kind of obsess over it. Always want to have more of a feel of pianists comping with Melody in the right hand. To start, I'd have to agree with Jordan re. starting with fuller CM and peeling it back to being more sparse. The CM stuff teaches a lot of the lessons.

Personally, I think the easiest and biggest bang for your buck item would be to do more with planting and picking the melody note first in your CM voicings. 2 voices agriculture separately But really just one chord. It's a purely mechanical exercise in which you can make any tune you already know an étude of sorts. Plant/play the melody note finger and then comp the chord afterwards. Until you get used to hearing it , you can play the melody slightly before the beat with the chord following on the beat , but eventually you want kind of an offbeat , left-hand-piano trio sound.

You already do an excellent job of the reverse : planting the bass notes on & and then swinging into the rest of the chord on the beat. Really helps with getting an un-arranged sounding legato for CM. Some of these can be awkward and you have to kind of back into them, playing the preceding note or two in the context of the target chord.

Seems almost counterintuitive that this would help with improv, but like learning rote scale fingerings on the piano, eventually you learn to do them on the fly . Also like the piano, once you learn them it's pretty easy to break the rules and play things more just anyway you kind of can come by in the moment.

I'm really just a hobbyist, but I've played this way pretty much exclusively for three or four years. I hear a ton of players who actually play better than me in most respects , but can't articulate Jazz in a convincing way in the style you're talking about. I honestly think it's an independent skill regardless of your ability otherwise. I think most of the problems are with the articulations, which CAN be worked on.

Practicing everything separately is not going to get you there IMO. Anyway, good luck!

Thanks, Matt. Yeah what I'm learning is how important it is where the line ends for one to be able to grab that chord at the end. Obviously new connections must be established. It'll take time and discipline as well. It's just so easy to forget the rule and keep playing the line through many changes. Once again, BIAB is invaluable for this.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Thanks, Matt. Yeah what I'm learning is how important it is where the line ends for one to be able to grab that chord at the end. Obviously new connections must be established. It'll take time and discipline as well. It's just so easy to forget the rule and keep playing the line through many changes. Once again, BIAB is invaluable for this.

Don't think it matters too much how many changes you play through necessarily, especially if you outline them in the line pretty well. I'm just a hobbyist, myself, and don't play anything too complex, but I've really worked on the chord/line integration thing.

Below is my "practicing" through the tune they're doing for the practical standards thread this month on the forum, I Wish You Love. I'm reading this out of a real book. Didn't really play it before today, and it's rough. But it does show what you can do with things on an improvisational level once you get the fingering concept together. I'm not a great soloist, but I did some improv on this just to illustrate where I'm trying to get to eventually. I'd have to practice this tune a good bit more to really do it, even on this pretty simple tune. It kind of tanks at the end. :-)

Anyway, my point is, as amateur as the solo and the playing are, I don't really play a lot better without the chords. It's not like I'm a lot better with a backing track, and only this good playing solo. I've just mostly improvised with chords the last couple of years.

Anyway, the melody of this tune is particularly suited to leading with the melody first, like I was talking about earlier. As a kind of exercise I tried to play the melody note first most of the time, and then the chord after. My fingering is occasionally weirdo, but again, some of that's because (in addition to the tune being unfamiliar) I'm fingering the end of the line with the destination chord in mind, instead of the other way around.

I'm really trying to comp behind my "inner saxophone" (the melody I'm playing). I want them to sound like separate entities, even though it's largely based on an actual fixed chord. I'm trying to not compromise anything about the melody's phrasing itself, just to suit the chord, or to set up a new position. I hope that comes across, and I hope to soon have a little better vocabulary and actual improvisation skills to use with this stuff. But the technical concept of what I'm talking about is there and should work with whatever lines/chord voicings I add to my playing in the future.

Sorry to be long.

[Nylonstring]

Don't think it matters too much how many changes you play through necessarily, especially if you outline them in the line pretty well. I'm just a hobbyist, myself, and don't play anything too complex, but I've really worked on the chord/line integration thing.Below is my "practicing" through the tune they're doing for the practical standards thread this month on the forum, I Wish You Love. I'm reading this out of a real book. Didn't really play it before today, and it's rough. But it does show what you can do with things on an improvisational level once you get the fingering concept together. I'm not a great soloist, but I did some improv on this just to illustrate where I'm trying to get to eventually. I'd have to practice this tune a good bit more to really do it, even on this pretty simple tune. It kind of tanks at the end. :-)Anyway, my point is, as amateur as the solo and the playing are, I don't really play a lot better without the chords. It's not like I'm a lot better with a backing track, and only this good playing solo. I've just mostly improvised with chords the last couple of years. Anyway, the melody of this tune is particularly suited to leading with the melody first, like I was talking about earlier. As a kind of exercise I tried to play the melody note first most of the time, and then the chord after. My fingering is occasionally weirdo, but again, some of that's because (in addition to the tune being unfamiliar) I'm fingering the end of the line with the destination chord in mind, instead of the other way around. I'm really trying to comp behind my "inner saxophone" (the melody I'm playing). I want them to sound like separate entities, even though it's largely based on an actual fixed chord. I'm trying to not compromise anything about the melody's phrasing itself, just to suit the chord, or to set up a new position. I hope that comes across, and I hope to soon have a little better vocabulary and actual improvisation skills to use with this stuff. But the technical concept of what I'm talking about is there and should work with whatever lines/chord voicings I add to my playing in the future. Sorry to be long.

Well, this is a actually a new focus for me. What I've primarily been working on over the last few years in improvising via chords (or at least from the played chord), or as Jeff Linsky (who is one of my primary examples of this) calls it, improvising polyphonically. Since I was so focused on grabbing the chord, that could be why I became so dependent on playing the chord first and letting a line emerge from there--which has affected my phrasing in a detrimental way. With regard to your comment about it not mattering how much one extends the line before a chord I would agree in the context of a real performance. I know of many examples (and this may be the case for most jazz guitarist who play in a trio context) who solo with little to no chord accompaniment dispersed through their playing. Many others have made this point in this thread. As you say if one puts the essential tones to define the chords in the line, the harmony--along with a solid bass line--will be implied. But what I'm trying to do is develop this skill with a practice regimen, so I think the self-imposed discipline of compelling a chord interjection at shorter intervals is a necessary ingredient to that development. As far as the backing tracks, I find these indispensable as well, since this is the closest I can come to playing in a real trio format (since I don't have a bass player and drummer with whom I can practice). I am finding tremendous benefit in this as it not only imposes the discipline of a metronome for my timing (but a lot more fun than metronome) but also opens my ears to play differently than I would solo: more rhythmically, more space, leaving off bass notes from the chord so as not to interfere with the bass line. I'd recommend you give it try, Matt. It's a great exercise and just a whole lot of fun as well.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Well, this is a actually a new focus for me. What I've primarily been working on over the last few years in improvising via chords (or at least from the played chord), or as Jeff Linsky (who is one of my primary examples of this) calls it, improvising polyphonically. Since I was so focused on grabbing the chord, that could be why I became so dependent on playing the chord first and letting a line emerge from there--which has affected my phrasing in a detrimental way.

Yeah, I'm based mostly based around chords as well. Need to get things together everywhere on the fretboard, but...still learning. I've been working on some stuff with enclosures/targeting out of Amadie's (sp?) book on improv, and also somewhat from Bert Ligon's material. Really basic stuff, but that's where I'm at.

Anyway Ligon's big thing with shedding any new line is to make sure to practice it on, before and after the beat. It's kind of stamped big on his material "On, Before, After". So that you're not phrasing things exactly the same way all of the time. I attached a pdf. Kind of looks bad. Baby stuff really. But it's a simple example. Helps with getting away from always being on the same part of the beat, and even from having to begin with the chord. you'll notice that on the last one the target is on the chord.

Re. Band in a Box, I need to "get my life right" and work with something like it. I've got an old copy which is outdated on any machine I have now, I think.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Okay. Here is straight from Ligon . Beginner stuff available for free, from him, on his website. I'll probably remove this when I find the link.

And...



Anyway, I am always trying to integrate chords into whatever.

A lot of this kind of stuff in his comprehensive technique book as well. It's not guitar specific.

[Vladan]

Here's that video. Sorry I couldn't make it shorter. Peace.
...

Thanks man, this was quite a good way to spend 21 minutes of my time.

[christianm77]

Well, this is a actually a new focus for me. What I've primarily been working on over the last few years in improvising via chords (or at least from the played chord), or as Jeff Linsky (who is one of my primary examples of this) calls it, improvising polyphonically. Since I was so focused on grabbing the chord, that could be why I became so dependent on playing the chord first and letting a line emerge from there--which has affected my phrasing in a detrimental way. With regard to your comment about it not mattering how much one extends the line before a chord I would agree in the context of a real performance. I know of many examples (and this may be the case for most jazz guitarist who play in a trio context) who solo with little to no chord accompaniment dispersed through their playing. Many others have made this point in this thread. As you say if one puts the essential tones to define the chords in the line, the harmony--along with a solid bass line--will be implied. But what I'm trying to do is develop this skill with a practice regimen, so I think the self-imposed discipline of compelling a chord interjection at shorter intervals is a necessary ingredient to that development. As far as the backing tracks, I find these indispensable as well, since this is the closest I can come to playing in a real trio format (since I don't have a bass player and drummer with whom I can practice). I am finding tremendous benefit in this as it not only imposes the discipline of a metronome for my timing (but a lot more fun than metronome) but also opens my ears to play differently than I would solo: more rhythmically, more space, leaving off bass notes from the chord so as not to interfere with the bass line. I'd recommend you give it try, Matt. It's a great exercise and just a whole lot of fun as well.

I think it can be as simple as making sure you grab melody notes (esp. at the end of phrases) with the 3rd or 4th finger, just so you can put a chord in there after the melody note.

Certainly I feel there's a long way to go for myself. I feel that playing with rythmic strength and nailing the chord tones in one's line goes along way towards making a trio situation complete - far more so than a more complex guitar style executed with slightly dodgy time - then sprinkling some little partial chords and a bit of chord soloing is just the icing on the cake.

In fact, I would say due to some slight issues with rhythm the chord/melody soloing thing actually sounds less good in my playing than just playing single note lines and breaking it up with comping - even for duo.

Of course, YMMV, and everyone has different strengths and weaknesses :-)

[christianm77]

Don't think it matters too much how many changes you play through necessarily, especially if you outline them in the line pretty well. I'm just a hobbyist, myself, and don't play anything too complex, but I've really worked on the chord/line integration thing.

Below is my "practicing" through the tune they're doing for the practical standards thread this month on the forum, I Wish You Love. I'm reading this out of a real book. Didn't really play it before today, and it's rough. But it does show what you can do with things on an improvisational level once you get the fingering concept together. I'm not a great soloist, but I did some improv on this just to illustrate where I'm trying to get to eventually. I'd have to practice this tune a good bit more to really do it, even on this pretty simple tune. It kind of tanks at the end. :-)

Anyway, my point is, as amateur as the solo and the playing are, I don't really play a lot better without the chords. It's not like I'm a lot better with a backing track, and only this good playing solo. I've just mostly improvised with chords the last couple of years.

Anyway, the melody of this tune is particularly suited to leading with the melody first, like I was talking about earlier. As a kind of exercise I tried to play the melody note first most of the time, and then the chord after. My fingering is occasionally weirdo, but again, some of that's because (in addition to the tune being unfamiliar) I'm fingering the end of the line with the destination chord in mind, instead of the other way around.

I'm really trying to comp behind my "inner saxophone" (the melody I'm playing). I want them to sound like separate entities, even though it's largely based on an actual fixed chord. I'm trying to not compromise anything about the melody's phrasing itself, just to suit the chord, or to set up a new position. I hope that comes across, and I hope to soon have a little better vocabulary and actual improvisation skills to use with this stuff. But the technical concept of what I'm talking about is there and should work with whatever lines/chord voicings I add to my playing in the future.

Sorry to be long.

Nice example of what I'm talking about! Cheers Matt.

You can play this type of thing with a pick as well, which is important for me for various reasons (although I'm starting to see getting into Hybrid picking or playing with a thumb pick would open a lot of doors.)

[matt.guitarteacher]

Nice example of what I'm talking about! Cheers Matt.

You can play this type of thing with a pick as well, which is important for me for various reasons (although I'm starting to see getting into Hybrid picking or playing with a thumb pick would open a lot of doors.)

Yeah. It's funny. Learned a lot of voicings for chord melody as a beginner which are basically unplayable with a basic strum. The thing is when you're breaking things up into separate voices - bass, chord, melody etc., - and not playing them all at simultaneously, you can do it with a pick as well. I've enjoyed a lot more plectrum play lately.

Thanks for your comments BTW. I'm still learning for sure. Enjoy reading your posts.

[Vladan]

Joe Pass!

[Nylonstring]

I've finally found an instructional lesson on specifically what I've been asking about. It's one of Mike's Masterclasses by Juampy Juarez. Here's the preview video:

[ah.clem]

I am also working on this technique with my teacher, in a CM context. A couple of things I have learned intellectually (and am trying to incorporate in actual playing) is to always try to connect the chords with a bass line, and whenever I am playing a single note (melody or solo), always have a chord form over it so I can decide to play it or not. It's a lot easier to grab the chord if it's sitting right there ready to be pressed than it is to play a line and then have to set up for the chord you want to drop in. I also spend a lot of time coming up with a chord for every note I am playing, so I am learning/figuring out a lot of new grips (someone mentioned playing more like a piano player - all I pretty much listen to is solo piano or piano trios as that is the sound I want out of the 7 string).

Personally, I do not care for long phrases of single be-bop style guitar lines in solo style playing, even if they outline the harmonic structure - I just find it too sterile sounding, so perhaps that's why my instructor is having me learn as described above. I am finding it difficult, but I do believe that I will end up with the sound I am ultimately looking for, especially when he just does it as a demo in my lesson, but he has been doing it for 40 years - I feel hope and despair at the same time <chuckle>. He is primarily a 7 string CM solo player, and I am also striving to be one. Well, at least striving to have fun on the way, no idea if I will ever get there...

[Nylonstring]

I am also working on this technique with my teacher, in a CM context. A couple of things I have learned intellectually (and am trying to incorporate in actual playing) is to always try to connect the chords with a bass line, and whenever I am playing a single note (melody or solo), always have a chord form over it so I can decide to play it or not. It's a lot easier to grab the chord if it's sitting right there ready to be pressed than it is to play a line and then have to set up for the chord you want to drop in. I also spend a lot of time coming up with a chord for every note I am playing, so I am learning/figuring out a lot of new grips (someone mentioned playing more like a piano player - all I pretty much listen to is solo piano or piano trios as that is the sound I want out of the 7 string).

Personally, I do not care for long phrases of single be-bop style guitar lines in solo style playing, even if they outline the harmonic structure - I just find it to sterile sounding, so perhaps that's why my instructor is having me learn as described above. I am finding it difficult, but I do believe that I will end up with the sound I am ultimately looking for, especially when he just does it as a demo in my lesson, but he has been doing it for 40 years - I feel hope and despair at the same time <chuckle>. He is primarily a 7 string CM solo player, and I am also striving to be one. Well, at least striving to have fun on the way, no idea if I will ever get there...

I can certainly relate to that. At the beginning of the thread I mentioned that I've been working for a few years on polyphonic improvisation which, at least in my case, means improvising within the context of a played chord or chord fragment, so that chord shape is always under my fingers. I'm finding my most successful practice by capitalizing off that work--single note soloing by hovering over that chord shape such that I can grab it at the end of the line. Obviously the goal here is to have all these options internalized and available such that they are all used within an improvised chorus or two for variety. It can be done one way, and many players successfully do so. Burrell, for instance will use chord punches on the head, but rarely plays them when soloing. Charlie Byrd, conversely, rarely played single note lines, but would often solo throughout his improvised choruses completely from full chords. And, speaking of 7 string players, Ron Eschete will often solo entirely with beautifully thought out chord phrases.

Forgive me for being dense...but what does CM stand for?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Forgive me for being dense...but what does CM stand for?

chord-melody

[Nylonstring]

chord-melody

Ah. (I suspected I would feel like an idiot once I was told. ) Thanks.

[Nylonstring]

I found a complete lesson on YouTube addressing this issue. I really like his ideas and will try and incorporate them into my practice plan. I think mapping out exactly which chord changes you're going to grab ahead of time is a great idea. I also like his idea of making the solo phrases more meaningful. What I've been trying to do is just simplify them down to just 3 or 4 notes, but in my conversations with my former teacher Mark Stefani he was encouraging me to do exactly what this fellow is advocating by using more meaningful jazz language. I think the other thing I'm gleaning from this is to LEAVE MORE SPACE! IOW, don't be afraid of some silence between the end of the line and the chord punctuation.