Improvising in a trio

**Nylonstring** · 06-02-2015, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

get the Lennie Breau book, it's a free download.

I think a actually have that book somewhere in my collection. Haven't looked at it in years. The main thing I remember about it is his whole thing of using tritons (the 3rd & 7th) of chords to comp for yourself while soloing, and the example in the book is a simple 3 chord blues. I'll look through my junk and see if I can find it.

**Nylonstring** · 06-02-2015, 10:44 AM

Since everyone is so keen on examples, here's the fantastic Paul Meyers doing what I'm talking about as well as Earl, (also on a nylon string) but more outside:

**Nylonstring** · 06-02-2015, 11:35 AM

More Paul Meyers.

**christianm77** · 06-02-2015, 11:58 AM

It's tangentially connected to thread, but I'm doing a fair amount of trio playing ATM.

I find so much of it depends on bass and drums. If there's a nice pocket, things will often take care of themselves.

But I've been quite conscious about introducing chords into my playing. I like the way it makes me be mindful about what I'm playing and I actually think it makes my time a bit better because I have to think more rhythmically...

**rkwestcoast** · 06-02-2015, 01:31 PM

Check out Kenny Burrell's trios - particularly Live at the Village Vanguard

He came up playing in a lot of pianoless formats

**sgcim** · 06-02-2015, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Nylonstring

More Paul Meyers.

Paul is a monster. He's basically a one man rhythm section.
We had a benefit party for Roger Borys when his shop was under seven feet of water from Sandy, and instead of having a bass player, Paul played bass lines and comped for everyone. Great musician!

**Nylonstring** · 06-02-2015, 03:18 PM

It seems to me there are a couple of ways to approach this. One would be to transcribe the work of the masters who have been referenced. My problem is that I'm 59 years old, I still work a full time job, and I'm doing solo gigs on the side--plus I'm just awful at transcribing. I've done it, but it's pure agony. I just don't have the time for that. So that leaves some form of musical exercise to develop the skill. One method would be to take a tune like All The Things You Are, slow everything way down, and at each chord change play a simple line ending with a couple of chord punches, preferably making the change to the next chord, i.e., the first line ends with a quick Fm7/B7 chord cadence. Play through one chorus that way, then play the next chorus by playing longer lines and making your chord punches at every other change. I can also envision working out lines this way, developing actual vocabulary that include the chords or chord fragments in the same way I spent all those years working on 2/5/1 and turnaround lines. Anyone have any other ideas for a systematic approach like this?

destinytot · 06-02-2015, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Nylonstring

Since everyone is so keen on examples, here's the fantastic Paul Meyers doing what I'm talking about as well as Earl, (also on a nylon string) but more outside:

Thanks very much for posting this wonderful example of ideas having taken shape through fearless fingerstyle - very inspiring!

**pamosmusic** · 06-02-2015, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I think your tips and and advice are excellent - if you'll forgive the flattery, Peter, that comes as no surprise given the standard of your playing. (I delight in the subtle virtuosity of players who - without elitism - elevate their playing to Art.)

I'll always forgive flattery

**pamosmusic** · 06-02-2015, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Nylonstring

It seems to me there are a couple of ways to approach this. One would be to transcribe the work of the masters who have been referenced. My problem is that I'm 59 years old, I still work a full time job, and I'm doing solo gigs on the side--plus I'm just awful at transcribing. I've done it, but it's pure agony. I just don't have the time for that. So that leaves some form of musical exercise to develop the skill. One method would be to take a tune like All The Things You Are, slow everything way down, and at each chord change play a simple line ending with a couple of chord punches, preferably making the change to the next chord, i.e., the first line ends with a quick Fm7/B7 chord cadence. Play through one chorus that way, then play the next chorus by playing longer lines and making your chord punches at every other change. I can also envision working out lines this way, developing actual vocabulary that include the chords or chord fragments in the same way I spent all those years working on 2/5/1 and turnaround lines. Anyone have any other ideas for a systematic approach like this?

Okay so it seems you're looking for specific exercises and not broader practice ideas? Your idea there is cool but I'll still stand by saying that expanding the chord vocabulary is pretty near the top of the list for that kind of playing. I like to do this ...

Pick a tune - maybe all the things you are. pick a string set ... For the sake of this we'll say the top four strings and we're working on drop two voicings. Start the lowest you can and ascend playing one chord per beat. Play all Fmin7 voicings for four beats - a new voicing each beat. After the first measure switch to Bbmin7, then Eb7, then Abmaj7 etc. Switch directions when you room on of room and start descending. Switch again when you get to the bottom and ascend again. Repeat until you've gone through the whole tune. Then do the same on the middle string set. Then the bottom. You could do this with triads too. Or any other voicing. Or diatonic subs or anything under the sun. Suuuuuper useful. Musical spinach.

**Nylonstring** · 06-02-2015, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Nylonstring

It seems to me there are a couple of ways to approach this. One would be to transcribe the work of the masters who have been referenced. My problem is that I'm 59 years old, I still work a full time job, and I'm doing solo gigs on the side--plus I'm just awful at transcribing. I've done it, but it's pure agony. I just don't have the time for that. So that leaves some form of musical exercise to develop the skill. One method would be to take a tune like All The Things You Are, slow everything way down, and at each chord change play a simple line ending with a couple of chord punches, preferably making the change to the next chord, i.e., the first line ends with a quick Fm7/B7 chord cadence. Play through one chorus that way, then play the next chorus by playing longer lines and making your chord punches at every other change. I can also envision working out lines this way, developing actual vocabulary that include the chords or chord fragments in the same way I spent all those years working on 2/5/1 and turnaround lines. Anyone have any other ideas for a systematic approach like this?

I wrote the above a bit before my lunch time. So at lunch I pulled out the guitar I keep stashed under a side table at my work station, fired up iRealbook on my iPad and began working through some tunes at a slow easy tempo following the rules I had postulated. (iRealbook plays a midi backing track for you as well as displaying the chart--a poor man's on-the-spot Band In a Box on the iPad.) It seems my intuition was right on the money. Forcing myself to follow those rules began to bear fruit almost immediately. And having the chart in front of me helped a lot--you don't have to think so much about what the next chord change is and can instead concern yourself more about what grip you're going to use depending on where the line is going. Trouble spots become apparent very quickly. Just stop and work something out, then start up again. This is definitely going to become a regular part of my practice.

**Nylonstring** · 06-02-2015, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Thanks very much for posting this wonderful example of ideas having taken shape through fearless fingerstyle - very inspiring!

He's an inspiration for me as well. Glad you found it helpful.

destinytot · 06-02-2015, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Nylonstring

It seems to me there are a couple of ways to approach this. One would be to transcribe the work of the masters who have been referenced. My problem is that I'm 59 years old, I still work a full time job, and I'm doing solo gigs on the side--plus I'm just awful at transcribing. I've done it, but it's pure agony. I just don't have the time for that. So that leaves some form of musical exercise to develop the skill. One method would be to take a tune like All The Things You Are, slow everything way down, and at each chord change play a simple line ending with a couple of chord punches, preferably making the change to the next chord, i.e., the first line ends with a quick Fm7/B7 chord cadence. Play through one chorus that way, then play the next chorus by playing longer lines and making your chord punches at every other change. I can also envision working out lines this way, developing actual vocabulary that include the chords or chord fragments in the same way I spent all those years working on 2/5/1 and turnaround lines. Anyone have any other ideas for a systematic approach like this?

I've just visited your website and enjoyed your wonderful guitar tone and formidable singing voice (with spot-on intonation). Having listened, I have a small suggestion - but I'm checking it's cool to make it before putting my oar (or foot) in where it may not be wanted.

**Nylonstring** · 06-02-2015, 07:03 PM

I'm a big boy. Fire away.

destinytot · 06-02-2015, 08:26 PM

My suggestion is to prephrase melodies relative to chord punches: play melodic phrases first, then follow up with a well-timed chord punch. You seem to be favouring the reverse.

To me, the sense of time and rhythm rings hollow. Your beautiful sound actually got my hopes up, and I kept listening in the hope of finding a groove. However, all I got was predictable and polite postphrasing with a twee bounce that put a strain on me as a listener.

My suggestion is to get a groove happening by harnessing the power of subdivided/syncopated beat and inferring/hinting at harmonic rhythm in your playing.

@15m00 in this video, Michael Brecker talks about time/swinging/cooking, saying that he worked on it by playing drums - and demonstrates:

**Nylonstring** · 06-02-2015, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

My suggestion is to prephrase melodies relative to chord punches: play melodic phrases first, then follow up with a well-timed chord punch. You seem to be favouring the reverse.

To me, the sense of time and rhythm rings hollow. Your beautiful sound actually got my hopes up, and I kept listening in the hope of finding a groove. However, all I got was predictable and polite postphrasing with a twee bounce that put a strain on me as a listener.

My suggestion is to get a groove happening by harnessing the power of subdivided/syncopated beat and inferring/hinting at harmonic rhythm in your playing.

@15m00 in this video, Michael Brecker talks about time/swinging/cooking, saying that he worked on it by playing drums - and demonstrates:

Um, I think I might understand what you're saying, but it's like we are speaking different languages. "Twee bounce"? Is that idiomatic to the UK -- like tupnney ha'penny? Not sure what "polite postphrasing" means. But thanks for your input.

destinytot · 06-03-2015, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Nylonstring

Um, I think I might understand what you're saying, but it's like we are speaking different languages. "Twee bounce"? Is that idiomatic to the UK -- like tupnney ha'penny? Not sure what "polite postphrasing" means. But thanks for your input.

"Polite prephrasing" and "twee bounce" are my own be-bop (idiomatic to me). "Polite prephrasing" because the melodic phrases seem to stand back and hold the door to allow the chord to enter first (as though saying "After you"), and 'twee' as in 'corny'. Emily Remner @7m27secs: "There's nothing more corny than something that doesn't swing and goes 'helio-copter, helio-copter,helio-co...' - you know, that type of thing."

**grahambop** · 06-03-2015, 05:14 AM

I had a go at this last night with 'All the things you is'. I used BIAB with the piano turned off. I actually found it easier than I expected, once I'd gone through a couple of choruses to knock off the 'rough edges'.

I think this may be because I often 'see' chord shapes when I play, and I tend to visualise lines on the fingerboard based around those chord forms (I think Joe Pass said he did this, on one of his videos). So I was able (after a while) to play short lines built around the chord forms, then punch in a chord without having to move my hand around much.

I also found it best not to play the chord too often, maybe every 2 bars. Sometimes I would let the improvised line go by for several bars with no chord, this sounded good and created a bit of variety in the texture.

Have to say I really enjoyed doing this, can't wait to try other tunes. I think this is going to be part of my daily routine from now on.

Another benefit is that it really makes you know the changes. There are a couple of spots in ATTYA where I sometimes forget exactly which chord is next, and this practice session really forced me to tighten those up and get them fixed.

**Nylonstring** · 06-03-2015, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

"Polite prephrasing" and "twee bounce" are my own be-bop (idiomatic to me). "Polite prephrasing" because the melodic phrases seem to stand back and hold the door to allow the chord to enter first (as though saying "After you"), and 'twee' as in 'corny'. Emily Remner @7m27secs: "There's nothing more corny than something that doesn't swing and goes 'helio-copter, helio-copter,helio-co...' - you know, that type of thing."

Corny. Alrightee then. That's clear enough.

**rsclosson** · 06-03-2015, 11:43 AM

I hope this is relevant. A couple of years ago I did a gig on Tenor Saxophone. It was going to be sax, bass and drums; no "rhythm" instrument at all. The drummer who I have known for a long time is the one who got the gig. It was short notice and we didn't even have time to rehearse. I was scared to death. Totally new territory for me.

The drummer had much more confidence in my ability than I did. He told me that he had no doubt that I would cut it. Now this guy is very talented and well educated. Masters in Jazz on percussion and vibes and Doctorate in world music.

Well, the gig turned out to be one of the best and most satisfying things I had ever done. The bass player is an outstanding player and that helps. With no ability to comp on a sax I was forced to re-think my knowledge of the tunes. On sax, I had tended to think linearly, but now I had to be more aware of the chords, their extensions etc. Turned out to be a great gig and I often wish we could do more.

Back to guitar. You will be surprised at how long you can get away with playing single note stuff and comping very little. And when you comp, you may only have to throw in a two note chord or even one note.

If I can do it on sax, you can certainly do it on guitar. It really opens up your thinking.

**grahambop** · 06-03-2015, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Nylonstring

Corny. Alrightee then. That's clear enough.

Don, I just listened to some of your youtube vids and soundcloud clips. You've got a wonderful, rich voice and your guitar provides really nice, swinging accompaniment.

I guess it's all subjective, but I didn't hear anything that sounded corny to me.

In any case, I think your voice will always get the bulk of the audience's attention - it's really something to hear!

**richb2** · 06-03-2015, 03:06 PM

Mike, great job on that video. The use of 3rd and 7ths I get. My issue is that when I comp in bossa I play with only my fingers. But when I solo I use a pick. That is one thing. I guess I could use a pick for this type of comping as along as don't need to play the alternating root. You have a bass player anyway (as do I SOMETIMES) and I know we have talked about not playing the root, even when playing bossa with a bass.

**Nylonstring** · 06-03-2015, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Don, I just listened to some of your youtube vids and soundcloud clips. You've got a wonderful, rich voice and your guitar provides really nice, swinging accompaniment.

I guess it's all subjective, but I didn't hear anything that sounded corny to me.

In any case, I think your voice will always get the bulk of the audience's attention - it's really something to hear!

Thanks. I fully understand that I'm a better singer than guitarist, yet oddly enough the bulk of my gigging has been playing solo guitar for corporate functions for which they wanted NO vocals. So go figure. Then I get comments from other guitarists like, "man, if I could sing like you I would be working all the time." And yet the gigs seem to get harder and harder to get. I made a concerted effort this year to get gigs in which I can sing, but I've been stunned at how hard it's been to get any. Maybe if I lost about a 100 lbs and grew some hair? But I guess all along it's been because my stuff is a bunch of cornball shit.

Anyway, thanks for the words of encouragement, Graham.

**Nylonstring** · 06-03-2015, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by rsclosson

I hope this is relevant. A couple of years ago I did a gig on Tenor Saxophone. It was going to be sax, bass and drums; no "rhythm" instrument at all. The drummer who I have known for a long time is the one who got the gig. It was short notice and we didn't even have time to rehearse. I was scared to death. Totally new territory for me.

The drummer had much more confidence in my ability than I did. He told me that he had no doubt that I would cut it. Now this guy is very talented and well educated. Masters in Jazz on percussion and vibes and Doctorate in world music.

Well, the gig turned out to be one of the best and most satisfying things I had ever done. The bass player is an outstanding player and that helps. With no ability to comp on a sax I was forced to re-think my knowledge of the tunes. On sax, I had tended to think linearly, but now I had to be more aware of the chords, their extensions etc. Turned out to be a great gig and I often wish we could do more.

Back to guitar. You will be surprised at how long you can get away with playing single note stuff and comping very little. And when you comp, you may only have to throw in a two note chord or even one note.

If I can do it on sax, you can certainly do it on guitar. It really opens up your thinking.

I appreciate your interest, but I'm actually soliciting suggestions on how to develop the skill that I described in the beginning of this thread rather than being talked out of the need for it. Thanks anyway.

destinytot · 06-03-2015, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Nylonstring

But I guess all along it's been because my stuff is a bunch of cornball shit.

I hope that isn't what you take from my suggestions:

to prephrase melodies relative to chord punches: play melodic phrases first, then follow up with a well-timed chord punch.

and

to get a groove happening by harnessing the power of subdivided/syncopated beat and inferring/hinting at harmonic rhythm in your playing.

You write

I fully understand that I'm a better singer than guitarist

I suspect you might experience it differently if you were to bring greater rhythmic subtlety and sophistication to your comping.

I'll take a final stab at expressing my suggestion: I'm talking about subordinating the comping/rhythm to the silence/spaces between single-note melodic lines/phrases. Leave the last note ringing where possible (as a cohesive device that enhances the listening experience), but syncopate what is otherwise silence/space. I hope I've addressed the OP constructively:

But another skill I would like to develop is improvising single lines interspersed with chord punches or chord fragments to support the harmony.