Body and Soul Analysis

[targuit]

So much overthinking!

"OK I understand you now. But I assume from what you say above, you would not object to my playing a Bb minor triad over an Eb m7 chord? It seemed to cause such a fuss before! " - Grahambop.

Well, for one thing it happens to be the first measure of the song! Some of us believe that at least hinting at the melody as written is a good start to improv. And I disagree with Klemons' premise - the F note in the melody is a 9th or a 2nd depending on how you look at it. There is nothing "magical" about a 9th note in the melody - recurs countless times in modern songs.

I'm not someone who insists on stating the melody unadorned, but in the first measure? It is true that the song comes back with repeats to that A section, so I concede one might elaborate the basic melody in the repeats.

Of course, this could also have some bearing on just how far you want to stray from the vocal melody. I have no problem with being liberal, though perhaps an initial statement of the actual melody in the first measure is not unreasonable.

Do you agree, Graham, with the issue of using the V7 major or minor of the proper chord in a progression as a vehicle for improv? I rarely see this discussed openly.

[jordanklemons]

we'll see what happens...like I said, what I ran through this morning had that "drunk" sound Konitz is so great at...I can't think of a better word really. Lovano can do it too...

Dang! That's killin' man!!!

The dude that got me hip to this stuff has been exploring it for like 25 years and is sick. He's got like 100 different tonalities that he can just hear. You can sit at the piano and play these huge chords and INSTANTANEOUSLY he will just tell you the exact spelling of it. And I've seen him do it at the the vibes where he was just playing chromatic nonsense until the piano player played a chord, and then he immediately switch gears and jumps into the 4 note structure (or quadrad as he calls it) that works with the chord, and then fall back into chromatic stuff and wait for the next chord. It's scary. And he does it without perfect pitch...and he shows you that it's learnable. He teaches this stuff to high school kids and they pick it up.

I've been at it for about half a year and see a ton of changes happening already...in my ear, my improv, my comping, my navigation of the fretboard, my arranging skills...everything really. Kind of gets at the foundation of all of it.

That's crazy cool that you hear a change in your playing in literally taking one shot at it!! And that it conjures up the likes of Konitz and Lovano!! Mad props man. Mad props.

[pingu]

Ok, playing around with ideas today...liking where it's heading. I'm sounding very Lee Konitz.

My ear wants more tension on chord #2...looking at an F diminished triad there now, or maybe an E major triad. My brain likes four note chords too...so maybe Emaj7...oooh...Can't seem to pull myself away from wanting the third in there (on the Bb7)...but in modern applications, a sus chord can have a third...

That's why I like stuff like this. Makes ya THINK.

second chord
F#maj7#5 is nice ....

sorry if thats already been said guys !

[pamosmusic]

Do you agree, Graham, with the issue of using the V7 major or minor of the proper chord in a progression as a vehicle for improv? I rarely see this discussed openly.

I usually hear that referred to as "diatonic substitution" ... If you see 3 to 9 arpeggios referenced then they're referring to the same idea. You're just referring to 5 to 11 arpeggios! Just means that playing an arpeggio that starts on the fifth of the chord and ends up giving you the 5, 7, 9, and 11 of the chord. Cool stuff. In principal it's the same idea as the upper structures. Using a smaller chord in a different way to imply a more colorful harmony.

[grahambop]

Some of us believe that at least hinting at the melody as written is a good start to improv. And I disagree with Klemons' premise - the F note in the melody is a 9th or a 2nd depending on how you look at it. There is nothing "magical" about a 9th note in the melody - recurs countless times in modern songs.

Yes that's why he chose to use a Bb minor triad in the first measure - because it contains the melody note F. Perhaps I've misunderstood you again?

Ebm9 chord = Eb, Gb, Bb, Db, F

Bb minor triad = Bb, Db, F.

So it's a triad, it fits nicely over the chord, and it contains the melody note, as you wished. What's not to like? Why is this over-thinking?

There's a lesson on use of triads on this very website by the way:
Upper Structure Triads

No-one's saying your Joe Pass method doesn't work - it's good too, just another approach. I don't even really know what you're objecting to anymore.

[pamosmusic]

I'm also going to hazard an explanation at why I think this sort of stuff is important. I think referring to it just as a system for organizing harmony doesn't really get at why this sort of thing is so useful.

I'm not a huge fan of crazy theory stuff and getting really cerebral but I am a huge fan of things like this. Here's why:

Practical reasons: As guitar players we can only play a handful of notes. Knowing ways to use three and four note voicings to imply harmonies that might include 5, 6, even 7 notes is incredibly useful.

Musical reasons: This is the big one for me. I had a professor in college who used to refer to melodies that had "horizontal gravity" and melodies that had "vertical gravity." Most jazz guys are super focused on vertical gravity. What that means is that the notes line up with those above and below them (hence the "vertical" part). Notes line up with the pitches that are suggested by the tonality of part of the tune and the chord that is played at that very moment by the bass and comping instrument. He always wanted people to think about horizontal gravity. What that means is that the lines carry huge weight in and of themselves. That they're melodically strong. He was really into free jazz so he would play examples of notes that were arranged in compelling ways that sounded good even though they had no relation to the harmony. They were strong melodies by themselves. The reason why things like this are so important to me is that ... yes, it is very important to play strong melodies ... but what if you also want to play cool harmonic colors? What better way to do both than to base your playing around two of the strongest melodic structures in Western Music: the major and minor triads? Being able to use triads to build melodies and knowing which parts of the harmonies those triads can hit is such an amazingly valuable tool. It's not a system that's complex for complexity's sake. It's challenging to understand and use sometimes but the driving force behind it is to give the improviser the ability to be incredibly harmonically colorful while being incredibly melodically simple.

[vhollund]

Graham - "No the VERY FIRST CHORD is Ebm. You can't replace THE VERY FIRST CHORD by a Bb7 chord, it clashes and sounds wrong. I don't mean the SECOND CHORD which is, as you say, Bb7. But you can use the NOTES of a Bb MINOR TRIAD over the VERY FIRST CHORD because they fit in the chord of Eb minor. Man, I give up!"


I am distressed that you seem to be misinterpreting what I said regarding the use of triads superimposed over a particular chord for improvisation purposes. I was not talking about Substitutions.

So I am going to make this principle stated as simply and concretely as I can. This will involve a statement of a generic "rule" or principle, the use of specific chords, key, and the acknowledgment that in practice there may always be exceptions to the applicability of the general "rule".

For the sake of the argument, let us assume that the first chord in Body And Soul in the key of Db is an Ebm7. What I said is a general "rule" is the following.

When you are playing over a chord such as this Ebm7, you can solo with the chord tones (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc) as well as the tones of the chord which would be the V7 - major or minor depending on the context - of that chord.

For the sake of simplicity, I will list some chords and their corresponding V7ths, which I will term chord dyads.

C - Gm7
A - Em7
E - Bm7

Let's look at this last example, E- Bm7, and the respective chord tones involved. Note that this is not a progression (E to Bm7) but simply notes in the second chord (Bm7) that can be used over the first (E).

E : E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D#7 - E. Bm7 : B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A# - B .

Note, of course, that you can use the V major rather than minor to the first chord as well.

B : B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A# - B .

What happens if you raise the root of the V7 major or minor dyad to the original chord in question - E ?

Raising the Bm7 root up a third, you get a D major. D - E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D. This works well if the original chord is an Em7. Em7 : E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D# - E .

Obviously, extensions such as 9ths, 11ths, 13ths are simply the continuation of the scale in question into the next octave with the corresponding intervals. The 9th is the 2nd. 11th is the 4th. The 13th is the 6th with respect to the root.

It is also true that in some circumstances you may need to raise or lower a particular interval by a half step in the context of your improvisation. But nonetheless, this "rule" or principle works rather well in the context of improvising.

In fact, non other than Joe Pass in an instructional video discussing jazz improvisation, paraphrasing, asks the question "what chord tones can you use when improvising over a particular chord in a progression?" At which point he looks directly into the camera and says, "Well, you can always use the tones of the V chord to the chord in question." Ie, if your chord is E, you can use the chord tones of B major or B minor.

This is a general rule to which there are exceptions but which works well because of the communality of chord tones in these chord dyad pairs.

I suspect that this is not a new insight to most, but it is a fundamental principle in my opinion that works well in most situation. But ultimately, the choice of notes to use in an improvisation over a chord progression must be determined by what sounds right and pleasing to your ear.

Now I have presented a principle in clear and highlighted English, with specific examples to illustrate. If you think this is bunk, or if you have corollary principles or rules or suggestions, anyone please feel free to comment.

I hope this post is a model of clarity.

I for one don't mind this info at all, ^^
And it's not off topic (how would it be ?)

I'm a bit curious though, to if it's an error that your minor scales are all minor melodic ?

A part from that, the main info to subtract from this, is that there definitely is a difference, between what one can use for comping, to what one can use for solo's

For improvising close to everything is go, (maximum options)
For comping, the hybrid chords are more limited, or differently limited at least

I can't seem to figure out when people are talking about one or the other
Obviously you talk about solo here, so that thing is clear with you

And then Bb7 with a d/M3 is definitely go! over Ebm7
IMO the passage Ebm7 Bb7 Ebm7 is not that interesting / difficult as sound to nail though, unless we go for creating a momento at one point (more about that in my next post)
....

[vhollund]

I think the Dexter Gordon version posted earlier is a good example of creating suspense and momentum, through a wilder unrestful syncopated rhythm and the bass and piano creating contrasting movement /variation while the Dexter creates an open modal, feel staying fairly simple around the melody, and sustaining notes

To me that suspense together with the following D9 (ii Vsub l ) really make the release to DbM7 and swing(from syncopation) give a drive to the song, and change things up

Ofcourse Dexter being out there in his way of phrasing/placing the notes, and to me it is just mind-blowingly inspiring

A great example of how to create modal type momentum, and perfectly understanding and using the harmonic tendencies(suspense/release) of the changes and enforcing a momentum to push the rhythm and the energy forward !
What you choose to play on Ebm7 then becomes a bit less important

Creating the same type momentum on a solo guitar, the way I see it, can best be achieved by moving chords around
Hybrids, subs, cluster voicings... all kinds of stuff that can potentially mess things up in a good way, and create a similar momentum / suspense / feel
Some Mccoy Tyner modal/quartal Stuff...

And of course then your classic half step up or down trick is a both simple and efficient tool there too

Different motivation and goals, calls for different tools and approaches

To me tempting recreate the type of energy, attitude and arrangement of the Dexter version, is something that i find extremely motivating

@Henry : Ok personally I would not be playing Ab9 instead of D9, because D9 has been part of the sound of the tune for +60 years. Even Billie Holiday's version use that half step downwards movement

But the type of reharmonization you posted yesterday would go well for creating some kind of out, maybe upwards moving momentum, for sure
It is fairly simple to pull off and it can work great, with a bit of luck and some exploration

I might create a thread about that type of reharmonization, if one is not already running somewhere.
Please don't hesitate to join and share some experience/ideas

[vhollund]

@Jordan

I didn't realize they were more important.

No, that is not why I didn't comment on them. And no, I do not hear D9 in every version. I listened to all the ones you shared and the Coltrane that Guitarzen shared. I heard D9 in only about half of them.

Right there is a good indicator for you, that you need to stop analyzing things in isolation,
and start training your ears by transcribing the masters,
because the caracteristic downwards half step / D9 movement is in ALL the songs i posted without exception.
+ the Coltrane (!)
...Interesting, Coltrane btw

Training your ears and learning tradition.
Good things ! Enjoy !

[Reg]

Here's a quick vid of tune.... It's not a worked out thing, so if I played it again, it would be different. I apologize to Jordon for posting. It's for Jay... but there might be some tonal target examples. I'll gladly post a few more, along with jay. Jordon can pick, say three tunes and jay and I can make chord solo examples... hopefully like within a few hours. I'll just read through and make them somewhat on the spot. Since Jay reads so well and has years of playing jazz experience, maybe he'll do the same. maybe we'll find some examples of sweet spots or tonal target type of moments.

[targuit]

Nice playing, Reg! Good feel and rhythm.

Just caught this post - still at work in my office for a while (here in RI it's actually 6PM), but I'll be heading home before too long. I recorded something yesterday evening, though the house was not "quiet" - I record in my living room. Anyway, after dinner I'll set up and put up something. I don't have a camcorder, so it will be an audio recording more likely than my Canon camera's video. Maybe I can get that to work though. Will have to use my Yamaha classical as my LGX is getting reset up. But the nylon strings will make a nice contrast. You might make me work late this evening. Thanks for playing along.

[Reg]

Hey Jay... you can use an iphone...it's not complicated. The point is... it's not a rehearsed performance, it's in a jazz style, improv... just play and see what you do. Anyone can work something out , that's why I said someone could pick three more tunes... and we can just read through them one right after another.... maybe change keys so they're in same key. You know actual playing in a jazz style, keep it simple... except the actual playing.

Don't put that much time into it... just play with what you have ... not what you want to develop. That's all I do.

[mr. beaumont]

Ok, so here's two vids i did at lunch, using Jordan's analysis as a jumping off point. Fpr me, this was well worth exploring.

[mr. beaumont]

Hey Jay... you can use an iphone...it's not complicated. The point is... it's not a rehearsed performance, it's in a jazz style, improv... just play and see what you do. Anyone can work something out , that's why I said someone could pick three more tunes... and we can just read through them one right after another.... maybe change keys so they're in same key. You know actual playing in a jazz style, keep it simple... except the actual playing.

Don't put that much time into it... just play with what you have ... not what you want to develop. That's all I do.

yup. Seriously, just like the vids i did above, with a foodfight in the cafeteria in the background

[srlank]

Late to the party, so can't read all of these posts due to time constraints. When using these triads, is the idea to always keep the melody note as part of your triad?

[jordanklemons]

@Jordan

Right there is a good indicator for you, that you need to stop analyzing things in isolation,
and start training your ears by transcribing the masters,
because the caracteristic downwards half step / D9 movement is in ALL the songs i posted without exception.

Training your ears and learning tradition.
Good things ! Enjoy !

Respectfully dude....what's your deal? Seriously. Like what is it that you're trying to prove here? I seriously can't figure it out.


You've asked me about this characteristic half step movement from Eb- to D7 to DbMaj walk down a few times now and stated that it's in ALL the recordings. I've pointed out that it's not. You're still saying it is. Dude...it's not. I listened the arrangement of the head on all the videos you shared and the Coltrane that GuitarZen shared.

Coltrane:
Eb-add9 Eb-Maj9 Eb-9 Eb-69
All over the bass player pedaling on the Ab...no D

Dexter:
Same movement as in Coltrane except the 6 also walks back up to the root. It uses a ii V to get to the DbMaj chord...A- to D7. Sounds like maybe A-9?? Haven't put in enough time to figure out exact voicings. But it's not just walking down in half steps. It's Eb- to A- to D7 resolving to DbMaj

Bird:
Not in the same key. No D7 at all. It's in AbMaj. Starts on Bb-. Goes to Eb7 for 2 beats then tritone sub to A7 to resolve AbMaj. It hits both chords...not JUST the one you keep saying is THE RIGHT answer. And you've got the wrong key.

Coleman:
D7. You got it boss.

Benny the Web:
D7. You got it again boss.

Miss Billie Holiday:
It's again in AbMaj, so it's actually A7.

Tony Scott and Bill Evans:
Ab7...sorry boss. No D7 here. At least not on the first A that I just listened to.

Bill Evans and Toots:
Some crazy @$$ weird stuff. Ab13sus maybe? Maybe with a b9 thrown in at times? Lots of pedaling with the bass player on Ab. I haven't listened enough or put in enough time to figure out exactly the voicings that Bill is playing. But seriously...he's Bill Evans.



You're 100% right about a couple, but only kind of right about a couple, and you're way off target with a couple. So I'm not sure why you're being so stubborn that ALL of the songs you posted have a D9...they don't. I'm sorry. That's not me being narcissistic...that's me listening and telling you that there's more going on.

If you want to play a D9, that's great man. Play a D9. Has ANYONE on this thread told you that you shouldn't?!?!?!?

But seriously, why all the vibing? Why try and belittle me and anyone who disagrees with you? What's the deal dude? Did someone that looks like me rob your home once? I just don't get it.

I've been trying to be cool with you. You keep throwing around insults and ridiculous statements, and for the sake of the thread and civility, I've been trying to ignore them. But this is getting beyond the point of ridiculous.

"Why leave out the D7 sound we all connect to the tune ?
It seems like an error and a missed opportunity where we could have added a hybrid like
AmMaj7/D or E/D or C+/D or Bm/C etc"

Aside from the fact that
NOT EVERY VERSION OF THE TUNE USES D7, NOR DOES EVERY VIDEO YOU SHARE USE IT...

There are 2 basic reasons I have been avoiding a response to this. Both of my reasons are out of respect and empathy to you V. But this is like the 3rd time you've asked...so if you want to know...fine.

The first reason I didn't respond is because you specifically have told me that I write too much and that I'm trying to dominate the thread. The thread that I started and have been trying to answer all questions and clear up confusions about. But okay. I respected that. I thanked you for your suggestion and backed off. I stopped writing so much. In order to do that, I had to stop responding to every single point being made by someone. Including every single point you were making.

The second reason I didn't respond is because you already find me narcissistic and have little but negative judgment towards me. I didn't see the use in telling you that NONE of the chords you were asking about harmonize the melody note in question. If you want me to use D7 instead of Ab7 because you think it seems like an error, that's cool man...I can appreciate that. But the entire purpose of this thread starts with the idea of PROPERLY HARMONIZING THE MELODY. And that means, to me, making sure the melody note exists inside the chord. Once I figured out the proper harmony that included the melody note, THEN I was extracting the upper structure triad to improvise with. But the melody was the starting point.

The note being harmonized here in my analysis is Bb. None of the chords you brought up have a Bb note in their upper structure. Frankly...none of them have a Bb note anywhere in them. So clearly, for the sake of finding proper harmony, I would never choose any of the options you presented here...even if you think they are better and I missed an opportunity.

If I seem narcissistic for pointing out basic harmony and music theory to you...well there's nothing I can do about that. I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings. I tried to be cool and not respond at all. This is the 3rd time you've asked. And this time you threw in a nice little judgment about what you think my music needs. Frankly dude...we've never met...you really think you can know what my music needs from looking at ONE analysis of ONE 8 bar section of ONE tune??

If you prefer to harmonize melody notes without putting the melody inside the chord, that's your right as a musician. I haven't once told you how to do your thing. But from the beginning I've made it clear what my goal and process was. If you play the melody different than me here and are not harmonizing a Bb note...and the note you are harmonizing exists in the 4 options you presented, fantastic man! But rather than telling me I messed up and missed a great opportunity...why don't you just present your own analysis so we can get an idea what you're up to, rather than just constantly nit picking at every choice I made?

Earlier in the thread you admitted that you "didn't read anywhere near half of your posts". Perhaps if you had...you would have seen that from the beginning, in the OP...I stated very clearly that I didn't expect ANYBODY to agree with my choices 100%, and I encouraged others to have a swing at it and try analyzing it their own way so we could share notes. Instead of doing that...you just keep trying to prove me wrong and talk about how useless and substanceless my stuff is to anyone except me.

Of course, you're completely overlooking the important fact that

IT IS USEFUL AND HAS GREAT SUBSTANCE TO ME...

Which to be honest...is the only thing that matters to me. I don't practice stuff on my guitar for you. I do it because it helps me. And you're also overlooking the fact that others have chimed in that have said they find it interesting and useful. So clearly, not everyone agrees with you. Perhaps some do. That's fine. Everyone decides for themselves. That's the beauty of music man.

So if you don't like it...drop it. Move on. Stop wasting your time arguing about things you don't like. You clearly don't like my approach, that's fine with me. You said you have upper structure chords down completely and really have nothing more to learn about it. That's great man. If you have a different approach than mine...go start a new thread talking about it. I'll check it out and see what you're all about.

Or, if you want to stay and be a part of the conversation and stick to the thread...write up your own analysis and share it! use Dexter's version as your model if you want. I've been asking other people to do that since the beginning. Make an analysis and show us how you phrase and harmonize the melody the way you want. Then maybe you can analyze the chord structure and show us how you would use upper structure ideas to improvise over the changes.

But if you're not going to do that and contribute healthy and helpful ideas to the conversation...then just drop it man. Drop the vibey thing you're doing. It's getting really old. I'm sure you'll read this an assume I'm just being narcissistic. But seriously man...contribute an analysis or a video of you showing how you would work through this tune with upper structure harmony and of you playing...join the conversation. Otherwise, this non-stop negativity thing is just getting tiring. If you don't dig the topic of the thread and have a better understanding of upper structure harmony and its applications...go start a better thread.

Please.

And thank you.

[jordanklemons]

I apologize to Jordon for posting.

No apology necessary Reg. I've been hoping other people would jump on the sharing bandwagon here anyways. Glad it's starting to happen.

As for picking other tunes. Honestly...I don't really feel like it's my place. Not what I was really looking for when I started the thread. Sorry man.

Maybe for the sake of simplifying things we could pick specific chord types? And tonalities? And share how we approach their creation? That seems like it would fit the vibe of the thread without making things to complex and without getting too 'competitive'.

In the past...when I've tried talking about single chord types...I often got the sense people thought the idea was too simple. But maybe, given the direction the thread has turned, some simplicity would do it some good???

What do you guys think?

[jordanklemons]

Ok, so here's two vids i did at lunch, using Jordan's analysis as a jumping off point. Fpr me, this was well worth exploring.

Thanks a bunch for sharing these Jeff! Care to elaborate on your thoughts? Stuff you found you liked? Stuff you found that you didn't like? You mentioned that for you it was well worth exploring. What did you get out of it?

If you don't mind me asking.

[jordanklemons]

Late to the party, so can't read all of these posts due to time constraints. When using these triads, is the idea to always keep the melody note as part of your triad?

The original idea was to properly harmonize the melody note....

Meaning that we need to find a way to construct a chord that contains the emphasized melody note within the harmonic structure. Of course, we can all phrase the melody differently...so depending on how we phrase it, we will probably all come up with different ideas.

For me...I like to emphasize the F note in the first bar over the Eb- chord. If I harmonize the Eb- to contain the F note...then I would put the 9 on the top and think of it as Eb-9.

From there, I simply extracted the upper structure triad of the chord.

Eb-Gb-Bb-Db-F

The triad at the top is

Bb-Db-F

Which is a Bb minor triad.

Then, for the sake of exploring that tonality, and being able to replicate it during improvisation...I chose to ONLY use the Bbminor triad to improvise with PLUS one extra note to create tension against it. I'm not using any scales or other chord tones...just those 4 notes. It's an exploration in tonality.

The idea is to not be limited to just playing a basic chord grip and having a scale to shred over it....but instead, to build up a vocabulary of different tonalities that we can consciously (or unconsciously) pick and choose from when we're improvising and comping.

Eb-7
Eb-9
Eb-11,9
Eb-13,11
Eb-13#9
etc

Each of these has a different color to it. The idea is to explore the colors and see what we can do with each. We don't have to do this within the context of a tune...but this thread was about that idea. We could just pick a chord type and explore it alone. Or to pick a chord type and explore moving it through cycles...

Eb-11,9
Gb-11,9
A-11,9
C-11,9
Eb-11,9

etc

There's a lot of approached. I just thought it would be worthwhile to try using the idea with a tune where the melody sort of dictates a basic story for the tonality to follow.

[gggomez]

I was avoiding reading all this as it seemed interesting but complex. Then I heard mr Beaumont's take on this thread (I assume it is this thread) on stalkbook and it sounded beautiful and simple.

Mr Beaumont can you please provide your brief simple summary of this thread.

[Hep To The Jive]

The original idea was to properly harmonize the melody note....

Meaning that we need to find a way to construct a chord that contains the emphasized melody note within the harmonic structure. Of course, we can all phrase the melody differently...so depending on how we phrase it, we will probably all come up with different ideas.

For me...I like to emphasize the F note in the first bar over the Eb- chord. If I harmonize the Eb- to contain the F note...then I would put the 9 on the top and think of it as Eb-9.

From there, I simply extracted the upper structure triad of the chord.

Eb-Gb-Bb-Db-F

The triad at the top is

Bb-Db-F

Which is a Bb minor triad.

Then, for the sake of exploring that tonality, and being able to replicate it during improvisation...I chose to ONLY use the Bbminor triad to improvise with PLUS one extra note to create tension against it. I'm not using any scales or other chord tones...just those 4 notes. It's an exploration in tonality.

The idea is to not be limited to just playing a basic chord grip and having a scale to shred over it....but instead, to build up a vocabulary of different tonalities that we can consciously (or unconsciously) pick and choose from when we're improvising and comping.

Eb-7
Eb-9
Eb-11,9
Eb-13,11
Eb-13#9
etc

Each of these has a different color to it. The idea is to explore the colors and see what we can do with each. We don't have to do this within the context of a tune...but this thread was about that idea. We could just pick a chord type and explore it alone. Or to pick a chord type and explore moving it through cycles...

Eb-11,9
Gb-11,9
A-11,9
C-11,9
Eb-11,9

etc

There's a lot of approached. I just thought it would be worthwhile to try using the idea with a tune where the melody sort of dictates a basic story for the tonality to follow.

Greetings from a fellow New Yorker, Jordan! Great stuff here. Actually that your last post clarified your concept quite nicely. I red the original post, and was a little confused, but I think I got it now.

When I play a standard, that's how I usually approach it, just trying to find sweet notes over a chord, never think scales (unless, of course, it's a modal jazz, like So What). The only problem for me, I think it's a problem, I not always have patience to analyze it as deeply, and basically it's just trial and error approach for me. I understand theory though, but never really explored the harmonic possibilities to that extent. I appreciate that you took time to share your explorations here, in my case it does help, I will def. give it a shot when I practice Body And Soul, or any other jazz tune for that matter.

[srlank]

Thx for the explanation Jordan, and taking the time to share. I listened to your videos (and other poster examples) after reading your reply/explanation and checking out your document at the beginning of the thread. It's some beautiful sounding stuff. Nice to know from where it is coming. The melody intertwined with the upper-structure triad/added note/chromatics sounds very rich. Definitely a new concept to me.

Great idea also to work on one triad at a time for each chord in order to really internalize each sound......so it comes out in an organic way when improvising. I tend to jump around with stuff too much. It really needs some time to seep into automatic.

[vhollund]

NOT EVERY VERSION OF THE TUNE USES D7, NOR DOES EVERY VIDEO YOU SHARE USE IT...

@Jordan
You seem kind of upset about humbly having to study tradition and listening
Its not that hard really (!)

But I'm not going to lie to everyone, just to please you, so in order not to waste time arguing with your lengthy proud nonsens and denial...(!)

I'll just encourage others to listen and discover that the information in the repost below is so absolutely correct.
I can write in majuscules too if that makes it right with you :
YES, ALL THE CLASSIC VERSIONS OF BODY AND SOUL POSTED IN THIS VIDEO HAS THE MENTIONED CARACTERISTIC SOUND
which counts all the videos I posted, Coltrane's version, and Regs too

The unusial D9 Vsub / downwards halfstep movement, has become an important recognisable part of the composition Body And Soul since +some 60 years ago

If you check out the cool voicings/ chords that Reg uses in his video,
you'll notice that D9 again and also the E9 that subs Edim
(As you recall, I suggested E9 in place of your C7b9/E-whatever(?) (Edim) )


Repost :

I didn't realize they were more important.

No, that is not why I didn't comment on them. And no, I do not hear D9 in every version. I listened to all the ones you shared and the Coltrane that Guitarzen shared. I heard D9 in only about half of them.

Right there is a good indicator for you, that you need to stop analyzing things in isolation,
and start training your ears by transcribing the masters,
because the caracteristic downwards half step / D9 movement is in ALL the songs i posted without exception.
+ the Coltrane (!)
...Interesting, Coltrane btw

Training your ears and learning tradition.
Good things ! Enjoy !

[targuit]

Hey, Reg! Don't worry! I don't have time to 'work things out' too deeply. And don't laugh. I not only do not have an iPhone, but an LG something or other, and I wouldn't really know yet how to record with it. Actually it has a video function but I have never used it.

Anyway, I did try to get some tracks down yesterday after dinner, but the house was not quiet. I had to try early this morning and actually got something down on my Tascam DR-05. A couple of takes. But I have to transfer it to the computer. Should be pretty easy when I have the time to read the directions. I know - tech troglodyte. But beware - it's coming.

As an aside, one talks about one offing stuff casually, and certainly I don't play a set arrangement. But nothing focuses the mind about thinking voicings and transitions like recording. This tune is not the easiest to play as a strict chord melody for one reason - the nature of the melody. It does not always 'sit' well in the context of the chord bed, or vice versa if you prefer. Perhaps it is one of the things that makes it an enduring song. The subtle tension of the melody against the harmonic bed. I like to take this as at a ballad tempo, too. The sensuality of the song.

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks a bunch for sharing these Jeff! Care to elaborate on your thoughts? Stuff you found you liked? Stuff you found that you didn't like? You mentioned that for you it was well worth exploring. What did you get out of it?

If you don't mind me asking.

I was avoiding reading all this as it seemed interesting but complex. Then I heard mr Beaumont's take on this thread (I assume it is this thread) on stalkbook and it sounded beautiful and simple.

Mr Beaumont can you please provide your brief simple summary of this thread.

So I'll only speak to what I was thinking when I did the two videos, because I think the summary of this thread is covered pretty cleanly if you watch Jordan's videos.

So, what I liked:

I like limitations, particularly for beginners, and myself (a beginner who's been doing it a while) I think it's an excellent exercise and it forces you to be creative.

So when I sat down with a chart of Jordan's triads in front of me, over a song I've played hundreds of times, it was a new view. And while I didn't stick to playing just triads (my brain doesn't work that way, I'm seeking melodies and my melodies almost always have some chromaticism) I did "visualize" the triads as I played, and I do think it changed the way I played. For example, Here I am playing this tune about 4 years ago.

So I think that's a much "straighter" approach, and yeah, part of it is my own development in the last few years, but this exercise was new to me and definitely influenced it. It also led me to experiment with an Emaj7 sound over the Bb altered chord...which I really liked.

What I didn't like:

Not much. My ears couldn't get past not having a third on that second chord. The C major triad over the E diminished was a bit plain to me, which is weird, because it gets the root, b3 and b5 of the diminished chord...I guess I need that bb7 crunchy note...

Overall, it was a very worthwhile exercise for me, and I'll be taking the rest of the tune through it as well.