Body and Soul Analysis

[jordanklemons]

in terms of voicing, where does B minor really sit well as Cmaj#11 ?
I just don't think it does

If the tonality is Cmaj#11, I would not jump right for my B- triad either. But unless it was a typo, I've never once asked what you would use for that chord. In the video and in my posts I've been talking about CMaj9#11. And that's the chord that I wanted your take on. The chord is spelled C-E-G-B-D-F#. So where the B- triad sits in it is right there inside the chord. It's literally the upper structure. That's why when you said you don't hear B- against this chord, I got curious what you think sounds better. It's possible you have another great option. I just don't know what it could be since this chord is literally built with that triad inside it. It's part of the DNA.

D/C fits better
I know you could say it's kindof the same but.. not in terms of voicings

If you 'know' that I would say that...or even assume...then you either aren't paying attention to what I'm saying, or just don't quite get it. I would never say it's the same thing. That's the point. It's great! Fantastic sound! But it's a very generalized nomenclature and sound that can be applied in multiple different tonalities. If you're saying D/C as though it's a triad over a single root note "C", then I'd say this is a very guitar player way of thinking. Which is not a bad thing or a judgment. This is the jazz guitar forums. My ideas are coming more from the piano players lexicon these days however.

Dtriad / C Major 7 = CMaj13,#11,9
Dtriad/ C7 = C13,#11,9
Dtriad/ C-7 = C-13,#11,9
Dtriad/ Cdim7 = Cdim9

We could probably find more if we took the time.

If your goal is to find one voicing that's malleable enough to 'fit in' with lots of chords that's great. But then none of the tonalities will be fully defined. Which if that's the sound you want to go for, then go for it. I'm just looking for specificity these days. None of the options that we can find using a Dtriad over any type of C chord will give us a CMaj9#11 chord. Because the D triad has an A note in it which immediately changes the tonality into another dimension. And that can be cool. But it can also mess things up. What if the composer wants us to avoid the 13? What if the melody hits a flat13 instead? There's no specificity. It's cool, and I really dig the sound of the Bsus over the C chord...giving a straight up CMaj7#11. But again...if you think that I would say that they're just all the same then you're missing the entirety of my point. They're NOT all the same. And I'm taking the time to explore each one to get to know it.

Which brings us back to what i was saying about dwelling on one chord in a song
It kind of takes it out of the context of the song

And then the sounds, you find are best, might not be the same, as when you put together the tempo, the context and the voicings

I intentionally didn't respond to this last time simply because I don't agree and am trying to make my posts shorter. But you asked again.

The notion that I shouldn't take the time to zoom my ears in on a chord the way I'm doing would then translate to the notion that you shouldn't take the time to learn all the scales and modes to different types of chords separately either. That before you know any scales, you should just pick a tune and learn every scale and mode and arpeggio in one big gulp. To me that form of practicing doesn't make sense. Listening to things slowed down does nothing except help me hear them so that I can work with them more efficiently at all tempos. It may be more helpful to get a specific issue it is you're hearing in my playing rather than general fears about what might happen. I did post a video of me applying all the chords back together into form and blowing over the A section of B&S on loop. Can you point something out in particular that you think sounds bad? That doesn't match the tune? Or something that sounds too academic? Otherwise, it just feels like someone warning me not to go into a certain neighborhood at night because it's dangerous even though I live there.

That's one reason why I posted all the great versions, to put some perspective on things

You don't think the melody works with the chords in Body and Soul

I mean ...that's pretty bold as statement for a song that has been standard for +50 years, and had all the greats play it, but that's ok
I think they work well as they where written in real book
Then you can rearrange and reharmonize and change the melody, and move things around
That's cool It's jazz

I don't know what to say to this. It seems to be presenting 2 contradictory ideas. On one hand you're saying that it's bold of me to stand up and say that I don't think the melody works with the chords in the tune....with the assumption somehow being that the chords in the real book are correct. And that I'm somehow going against the grain of the last 50+ years. And then at the same time you're sharing all these countless videos showing how different everybody treats the tune. So I'm just not sure what you're getting at. That said...I do find it interesting in listening to the Coltrane version that Guitarzen shared, and in listening to some of what you shared, that much of what I hear is an Eb-9 tonality on the first chord. Which means that those guys agreed that the Eb-7 chord doesn't harmonize the melody properly. I wouldn't expect every great version to be that way. But it's a nice pat on the back that my ear isn't steering me totally in a wrong direction.

[jordanklemons]

Hey Jordon... from your last vid... isn't the reason the "C" note you play just creates a tritone with F# you played last... so really your just resolving a very strong interval, the last "C" resolves down to "B". Which just happens to have the F# below to create very strong tonal support...

Reg, it's a great question, and honestly I don't really spend much time thinking about those types of things right now. If my ear hears something is working...I just trust my ear. There is certainly a lot of analysis going into the picture once I find what my ear likes...but I sort of have an innate trust that what my ear is hearing is just always going to be 'right' for me. Of course...knowing the theory is always a nice failsafe. Seeing the B- triad inside the chord is sort of my mind and ego's way of saying...yes, ok...I can sign on to this and agree with the ear. But the more I do this stuff, the more I'm just willing to ride along with whatever my ear says. And the more I do it, the more my ear just starts to find this stuff when I'm improvising. The guy I'm studying with is developing an app for ear training and learning deep applications of harmony. One of the things it does it plays polychords in random order. Big, stacked, slash chords...randomly. A few weeks ago he put it on, I grabbed my guitar, and without looking at the screen tried to play along. It was actually really interesting how easy it was to hear and find the 'sweet spot' notes just from listening. This stuff starts to become very obvious the more we listen. Just like you, and many of the guys here, can probably play Ti and hear it's strong desire to resolve to Do...when we learn to hear the melodic structures of chords (derived from the upper structure of any given chord)...we can actually hear the melody notes craving to move in certain ways. Sort of like what vhollund was asking about how this really applies to moving chords. This is kind of the answer. And these chords were randomized. So sometimes they're diatonic, sometimes not. But by aiming for the sweet spots in my ears and keeping my melodic ideas simple using the triads + 1 tension note...it all sounded VERY musical.

You may be right about the tritone. Honestly...I would usually play the full B- triad in my right hand. But I didn't want anyone to think I was 'cheating' by putting a B note in the chord and playing a C note a half step above it. But that's the idea. However you think of it...what's in the structure itself, what the intervals are, whatever...they will all pretty much lead to the same answer. And so will just slowing down and taking the time to listen honestly and with no agenda.

[jordanklemons]

What I do is try to think like a pianist. Looking at the fretboard mentally (left hand) and superimposing the upper structure triads/shapes on top. I like running half and whole step triads in series. On a C major chord: C, D, E, F#sus, G, Ab+ or b5, Am or Asus, Bsus. I really dig the sus triads: Dsus, Esus, Gsus, as well as the altered triads.

I used to put little progressions together on top of chords, if we were playing modally or hanging on the chord for a few bars. But now I just see them and hear them.

Yeah man! This stuff is great! A completely different application than what I'm talking about, but great stuff! For anyone reading the thread who's not that hip to the use of triads yet...what Henry is talking about is playing triads in different types of cycles over a given chord...correct me if I'm wrong Henry. In this way, we can create movement, momentum, and tension against something that otherwise might feel stagnant.

Great stuff! Very different application from what I'm talking about. But the notion at the core of what we're both talking about (using triads) is the same. If anyone hasn't already been checking this stuff out yet as well...it's definitely worth the time.

It won't necessarily lead to digging deeper within a tonality and finding the harmonic/melodic relationship the way I'm talking about using triads...but it will certain help produce motion which can be a very effective musical tool as well!

[jordanklemons]

Jay...if you can find an easier and more concise way to share these ideas to a group of people with vastly varying degrees of interest, positive vs negative views, judgments, etc...please do pass on the info. I will certainly consider it wholeheartedly.

I have tried to share single chord ideas here in the past. To keep things less complex. Generally they were poo-pooed as too simple. Like what I was talking about wasn't worth the time to check out. So I thought I'd share an entire section. And low and behold...I'm told it's too complicated.

What can you do? Right?

Just here to share ideas. I feel very fortunate to be in the situation I've worked my way into. The school I'm in, the musicians I get to study and play with. I've been craving knowledge and experiences like this for a looooooooong time. Trying to be open and respectful enough to value everybody else's opinions, critiques, questions, judgments, and misunderstandings and attempt to address each of them...regardless of levels of condescension. What's the point of sharing information if we don't care enough about the people we're sharing it with to take the time to talk to them and clear up issues and questions?

All of this is super simple to me. Arduous in application? Most definitely. Some of the most arduous and tedious work I've ever put in on the instrument. Far more challenging than it was to learn my scales and arpeggios. But has proven to be far more effective and worthwhile an experience.

[jordanklemons]

I suppose now that we've cleared up some of the confusion and see through the complexity...perhaps it will be easier to explain what I was doing in the OP.

GOALS:
-To find the best tonality for each individual chord to properly harmonize the melody.
-To find the most melodically in notes to structure my improvisation around so as to play within, and accentuate, the chosen tonalities dictated by the melody and the way I want to phrase it.

PROCESS:
-Decide how I want to phrase the melody so that I can hear which melody notes sound like they're carrying the gravitational weight of the phrase.
-Analyze the harmony in order to include these melodic anchor notes inside the chord.
-Find the upper structure triad (and add an extra note for melodic tension and movement).
-Play

No 'system' or 'method' contains everything...so there will always be loose ends. However, I don't see anything controversial here. Nor do I see it as complicated or re-inventing the wheel. I see it as being as natural as looking at a chord and choosing which scale or mode to use. The only different is that I want to be more specific to the tonality. So I'm minimizing things down and getting rid of some of the notes within the scales we all know and love.

There are many next steps I can and will take. I already foreshadowed one of them by video taping me improvising allowing for chromatic movement to connect the 4 note structures. That's a later step. Also...utilizing the 4 note structures to develop small and moveable chord voicings that will perfectly harmonize the melody within the tonality I want to create...and to do so in a very melodically driven way. To be able to comp more melodically, more specifically, and more freely within any given tonality without getting too stuck in the lower structure of the chord. Unless I want to. But to give myself the option to be able to see, hear, and navigate the upper structure in my comping so as to free up the bass player to fulfill his role, and to act more as the glue between the lower structure harmony and the upper structure melody.

The harmonic/comping application is far more challenging and arduous than simply learning to hear, see, and utilize the triads melodically.

[vhollund]

1)

That's why when you said you don't hear B- against this chord

Where did I say this ?
Here is what I said :

I rarely play/think Bm on a Cmaj#11, but it's true that it works and theres nothing wrong about it
At least when the chord is played alone

2)

If you 'know' that I would say that...or even assume...then you either aren't paying attention to what I'm saying, or just don't quite get it

Kind of rude
No, i did not say that

What I did say :

D/C fits better
I know you could say it's kindof the same but.. not in terms of voicings

D is fairly close to Bm and they share the same penta, so it would be a natural thing to say about D and Bm

I mean...I've been working almost exclusively on this stuff for about half a year

You're right ! It must be me who doesn't get it

3)

The notion that I shouldn't take the time to zoom my ears in on a chord the way I'm doing would then translate to the notion that you shouldn't take the time to learn all the scales and modes to different types of chords separately either.

No, did not say that

What I did say :

It is a good exercise to take each chord and learn the sound
We also used to ear train by singing each chord and the gregorian scales in my school

4)

What if the composer wants us to avoid the 13

Here's what you do :

Don't play the 13th !

5)

It may be more helpful to get a specific issue it is you're hearing in my playing rather than general fears about what might happen.

Oh so now the topic is about you, and not about Body and Soul ? I see

Try to play the song at a faster tempo, and see if your goto choices changes or not

FYI I didn't share any "fears" just information
If it doesn't work for you that's fine by me

Vaughn Wrote :
Which brings us back to what i was saying about dwelling on one chord in a song
It kind of takes it out of the context of the song

And then the sounds, you find are best, might not be the same, as when you put together the tempo, the context and the voicings

I intentionally didn't respond to this last time simply because I don't agree

Ok
What is the forum for again ?
And what was the topic again ?

[jordanklemons]

Making sure to copy and paste your quotes so as not to accidentally change any of the wording.


1) "The common obvious ones,
I do see/ think of.
Like G major, E minor (9)
D major
Bminor ...not so much"

"in terms of voicing, where does B minor really sit well as Cmaj#11 ?
I just don't think it does"

"I just don't play much B minor over Cmaj#11, because i find it is not what works best most of the time"


2) If I mixed up the c and w for Could and Would...or if I misinterpreted the word YOU ("I know YOU could say it's kind of the same.....") to be referring to ME when perhaps you meant it in a general sense of the human race? Or all musicians? Then I apologize for misunderstanding or offending you. The entire point I'm getting at is that I see and treat each of these tonalities as a different thing. If you think I (if you meant ME by using the word YOU) Could say they're kind of the same....then I stand by the point that you're missing what I'm talking about. Specificity. I'm all about specificity these days. I'm not going to generalize any chord type when I'm practicing.

The rest of your points in number 2 appear to me to be quite passive aggressive and instigatory and has nothing to do with music or learning more about it. So I apologize, but I'm skipping over them.


3) Yes...the quote you brought in here is something you said. And you also said these things....

"One can easily loose sight of the over all tune, though, by dwelling too long time on each chord/detail"

"Which brings us back to what i was saying about dwelling on one chord in a song
It kind of takes it out of the context of the song"

"And then the sounds, you find are best, might not be the same, as when you put together the tempo, the context and the voicings"

You certainly seem to agree at times...at least once...that it's cool to slow things down and check out each chord. But more of what you've been saying seems to push towards the idea that it will give out of context ideas that won't necessarily work musically when put together with the tempo, the context, and the voicings. I'm not trying to re-write the history here...I'm trying to consider all of what you're saying and the meat of what you're getting at.


4) That's great that you can avoid the 13. But my point being that that means you can't utilize the D upper structure triad against the chord. Using the D to create a CMaj9#11 tonality simply does not create that chord. It creates CMaj13#11,9. A beautiful chord. But as you say...if the composer wants us to avoid the 13...then the D triad is out of bounds. In which case, we have to work with something else. My go to would be the B- triad. As I've shown the theory of and the ear training behind multiple times. I'm still very curious what you would use. You've mostly talked about the CMaj#11...not the CMaj9#11...and yes...they are different tonalities. Just like CMaj and CMaj7 are different tonalities. There are other options to use. GMaj7 being one. I just don't like that one as much as a B- triad for my own reasons. I'm not trying to be uncool here V. You just said you have all this stuff down already. So I'm curious what you would use. If the 13th is out of bounds and we can't use D major triad. What would you use in that case? Or simply in the case of being asked to specifically create the CMaj9#11, as opposed to the CMaj#11?


5) Cute. Again...passive aggressive. No. I have NO intention of making this thread about me. This thread was simply to share some ideas I've been working on so that others could check them out on their own. I gave as little instruction to it as I could and left it as open to interpretation as possible so as to make sure everyone (beginners up to advanced players) knew that it was more about them using their ears to navigate the sounds and make their own choices. If I wanted everyone to play it the way I did...I would not have taken the time to try and explain how and why I interpreted the melody and to show how everyone else can do the same using their own ears in their own way. This thread seems to be becoming about me because others are getting caught up with how complex they think I am making it, or how much I overthink things, or how I'm skewing people's words and changing history, or my personal choices and applications of simple ideas, etc etc. If you recall...it was only a few messages ago that I said I'd offered my share and wanted to step back and let other people give their take on things. You and Henry both spoke as though you'd completely mastered and owned upper structure triad harmony. And since I haven't...I assumed it would be great if you both shared your thoughts. Henry's ideas were great. I love that stuff. But utilizing triads through cycles is a very different application. One that I was actually just talking about not that long ago with people in a different thread. A thread more about general uses of triads. This thread was specifically about upper structure harmony and defining that harmony on a given tune. I really liked some of the triads you mentioned against a CMaj#11 chord...but again...it didn't answer the question I've asked you several times now which is what you would use for CMaj9#11. Maybe you just don't like that chord and don't like playing it? That's fine too. I'm just curious. And I've been trying to get the conversation away from me and the potential downfalls of the way I think and practice for sometime. It's proving to be harder to get the conversation back onto the topic of harmony and upper structure triads than I realized it would be.

Perhaps to get this thread off of me and back to the tune...and perhaps if you don't like that chord...maybe you can share your own analysis of the A section? Which tonalities you would use to bring out the melody the way you here it, and which upper structure triads you're utilizing?

Honestly...yesterday, I almost wrote everyone a message thanking them for their responses and letting them know I was going to turn off the notifications for this thread as it felt like I was simply showing up to constantly defend MYSELF which is about the last thing I want to do. I'm taking away time from my own practicing and working to share ideas. I'm happy to do that, but frankly not interested in spending my valuable time defending myself against passive aggressive comments, or being told that my way of presenting material is overly obtuse. Certainly not when I see the material as way underdeveloped and undervalued in the guitar lexicon and when I'm doing it completely for free and not looking to get money or anything else out of it.

I hope that was courageous enough for you vhollund. Looks like you already deleted your comment regarding my courage. Personally, I can tell you that it takes a lot more courage to not only share my ideas on a forum like this, but then to be faced with a lot of negativity and still be willing to then post actual video...putting my name, face, and playing right out there in the midst of a group of people who seem more than happy to judge, critique, and one up rather than share and converse about ideas.

That said. I'm out. If anyone knows how to turn off notifications for a thread, please let me know. I'd greatly appreciate it, so I'm not constantly being inundated with emails about this thread. I feel like I shared my idea clearly enough. The videos seemed to help simplify everything. Glad they helped. And if anyone reading this is actually curious to talk about this stuff and riff ideas back and forth, feel free to private message me. No reason to continue playing defense. I got a ton of tonalities to explore and chart out, a ton of tunes to learn, and an album worth of nonet music I need to finish composing and arranging. So I'm out.

Seriously...thank you guys for helping give me my first 4 page thread! This is awesome! Seems like it's run its course though. And like vhollund sort of was alluding to...it's becoming more and more about me and my personal way of viewing music and practicing and less about music itself...and this tune in particular. I'm simply not interested in making it any more about me than it's already turned into. So the floor is open. See you guys on another thread.

[vhollund]

Making sure to copy and paste your quotes so as not to accidentally change any of the wording.

Yes, of-course all of the quotes are copy pasted, Jordan.
You have a weird way of apologizing for your many mis-quotes
But if that's the best you can do, I accept your apology
and add that I certainly do understand the pressure of the circumstances

but i should tell you that it is REALLY bad taste, and that i hope what come off as slander, won't be haunting me when people actually believe i said these things

Putting my name, face, and playing right out there in the midst of a group of people who seem more than happy to judge, critique, and one up rather than share and converse about ideas.

I totally agree that condescendence and arrogance is a problem on this forum
I was not trying to be hostile in any way, until you force me to throw back the ball
To me the forum is for sharing information and perspectives, and i try to stay out of the arrogance zone
But we should be able to share different perspectives and experience, if not the forum loses it's main purpose

As to your courage, I meant for reading through your own walls of text, that are undeniably somewhat discouraging

In the unlikely event that a composer wants me to play Bm/C, and only that one chord, I will

That's what I meant by "rarely"
What's more likely is that you have Cmaj9#11 or Cmaj7#11 or Cmaj7 etc written
And that I can play whatever extension, voicing and interpretation I want, and then i'll probably be playing something else
I do like to use Bm/C for as a sub for D7 though without specifically thinking of it as Bm

To that question about taking one chord out of a context, or playing a song really slowly, versus playing it faster
All it takes to understand what i mean is trying to play the song at a faster pace, and see what changes, and what is left of importance.
How you then play your Cmaj9#11 then depends on where you are and where you are going, and might not even include a 9 or a #11
I have been through a lot of brain activity like you, and i had to come up with simple ways of using/accessing the informations/sounds, having to think as little as possible.
And i think the speedtest is a brilliant determinator, because one can sit a say, "yeah I'll play this sub on that, and that on this" but before you found it, the chord is long gone.

I hope we can have more discussions another time, but man this is time consuming, see you later !

[Reg]

Thanks for response Jordon... Sorry if I try to organize too much, really. I mean you can play a F-9 to Bb13 vamp... and use a few versions of F references, you can do the same with Bb and also with the implied Eb.

For example we all play F- blues pentatonic tonal areas over that II V or the same with the Bb, maybe more in the blues direction and even Eb blues style. The Blues harmonic material might be pulled from note collections, Maj/ Min rock amd roll blues etc... or maybe more in a jazz blues with more reference to note collections pulled from MM sources.

Anyway even though i don't use the triad approach, I can appreciate your direction. That creating different sweet notes etc... using any approach is always a great direction. As I've said ... looking forward to more...

Jay... man, you need to get out more...

[pamosmusic]

And i think the speedtest is a brilliant determinator, because one can sit a say, "yeah I'll play this sub on that, and that on this" but before you found it, the chord is long gone.

So take a beginner and give them the speed test on playing single root position arpeggios over a blues. They will fail. Does that make playing chord tones is too complicated or does it mean that that person has not yet put in enough time to make it simple? It means the latter. I remember when by the time I remembered what chord was coming next it was gone. That didn't mean learning to play changes was too complicated an idea. I'd wager if a person took the time to become fluent with upper-structures it would be incredibly useful at fast tempos. Small groups of notes that highlight only the most colorful and unique notes in a particular chord? Sounds great to me.

I believe the Kenny Werner quote is "nothing is hard to play -- just unfamiliar"

[vhollund]

sure
If you read what i said just before that, it makes better sense

I have been through a lot of brain activity like you, and i had to come up with simple ways of using/accessing the informations/sounds, having to think as little as possible.
And i think the speedtest is a brilliant determinator, because one can sit a say, "yeah I'll play this sub on that, and that on this" but before you found it, the chord is long gone.

Also my point about the speed test was not only about accessibility, but about how it works differently musically, at a slightly higher pace, and in the context of voicings

To that question about taking one chord out of a context, or playing a song really slowly, versus playing it faster
All it takes to understand what i mean is trying to play the song at a faster pace, and see what changes, and what is left of importance.
How you then play your Cmaj9#11 then depends on where you are and where you are going, and might not even include a 9 or a #11

Just trying to add some useful information and perspective really

Good to test your info before you give something to a beginner

[targuit]

Reg - Do me a favor. Record a chord melody version of Body and Soul. No commentary, no frenetic fragmentation. Just a solo chord melody version. Put some soul into it. And I'll post mine, too.

But you are right - I should get out more....

[nick1994]

Reg - Do me a favor. Record a chord melody version of Body and Soul. No commentary, no frenetic fragmentation. Just a solo chord melody version. Put some soul into it. And I'll post mine, too.

But you are right - I should get out more....

may I ask why?

[henryrobinett]

As for Henry Robinett - give it a rest with the condescending attitude, my friend.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but in truth you don't know what you're talking about when you talk about things you don't know what you're talking about.

This isn't a conversation about how to play Body and Soul. It's a conversation about applying these concepts in improv.

[vhollund]

What could have been an interesting topic, went down into narcissisme, pissing contests and slander.
It's a sad outcome for what is supposed to be a discussion between grown men
Let's do better next time
This sucks
I'm out

Jazz is simple like surfing
How hard can it be ?

[henryrobinett]

Sorry vhollund. I didn't read any of the interesting conversation you and Jordan were having. I got back from being gone all day and the first thing j read was a response to something I posted this morning. No need to leave on my account.

[vhollund]

It wasn't on your account
Just the whole conversation seems to be a downwards spiral

[henryrobinett]

I'm reading it. I see what you mean though. Too bad, but I think it was bound for that direction.

[targuit]

Henry - "... in truth you don't know what you're talking about when you talk about things you don't know what you're talking about....

This isn't a conversation about how to play Body and Soul. It's a conversation about applying these concepts in improv."

I'm relieved to see that comments like the above are not "condescending" but rather just megalomaniacal. Well, Henry, since you are convinced that you do know what you are talking about, explain to me in theoretical musical terms just exactly what this rambling thread was about. Just exactly what concepts?

Henry Robinett - That said Jordon's way of presenting this is overly obtuse, abstruse and murky. Basically it's a way to approach improvisation by way of three or four note cells, i.e. triads or larger arpeggios. These can get access to the sound of the chord and/or the melody quicker than just giving te student a scale or overall chords.

Larry Carlton used to talk about triads over triads. I don't know if that is what this discussion purportedly was about. There was a lot of vague discussion of identifying target tones with gravitational pull, three and four note cells, and other vague prescriptions for determining which notes to play over chords that sounds like CST rationalizations. Meanwhile, I will try to figure out what this "triad" thing means. Would that be a three note chord? Gosh, since a Dm7b5 chord is already like four or five notes there, how could I ever figure out what other notes to play over that chord? Where to go with it? What scale to us? How can I get access to the remaining seven notes including some chromatics that sound like crap! This is all so over my head....

Since this is "beyond my ken and over my head", put it into clear musical theoretical terms. I'll struggle to follow your musical logic. Meantime, unless you can synthesize this into something a doctorate level guy like me can understand, I will call it BS. And that does not stand for "Body And Soul". As a physician, I could call it something else, but that would be beyond your ken and in waters far over your head.

And by the way, don't pull that Coltrane and Parker mystification crap either. Not everyone worships at that alter.

[grahambop]

Reg - Do me a favor. Record a chord melody version of Body and Soul. No commentary, no frenetic fragmentation. Just a solo chord melody version. Put some soul into it. And I'll post mine, too.

But you are right - I should get out more....

Doesn't Reg have a YouTube channel where he has posted like a million videos playing comping, chords, some solos etc. all on standards? And he recently posted some very nice Latin Jazz tracks from a recent studio session. I don't think he has anything to prove!

[grahambop]

Since this is "beyond my ken and over my head", put it into clear musical theoretical terms. I'll struggle to follow your musical logic. Meantime, unless you can synthesize this into something a doctorate level guy like me can understand, I will call it BS. And that does not stand for "Body And Soul". As a physician, I could call it something else, but that would be beyond your ken and in waters far over your head.

Let me have a go. Look at Jordan's first post and the PDF he did, it all got a bit too wordy after that. Take the first chord. Because the melody emphasises F he makes it an Ebm9 chord. Then he identifies a simple triad which uses notes from this chord, especially the F, because that is the melody note/colour tone he most wants to keep. A good one is a Bb minor triad, it consists of Bb, Db and F, therefore fits nicely over the Ebm9 chord. So those triad notes are the main notes to use when improvising over the first chord (plus other passing tones are allowed, if I understood it correctly).

That's basically it I think, he then repeated the process for the other chords. It's just a way of getting some new ideas by limiting your note choices to upper/colour tones. It looks like a long-winded way of doing it, but I expect you could get quicker with it once you'd got those sounds assimilated.

Also the reason for using triads (I believe) is because they are such logical structures, the ear always likes to hear them. So you can sort of stick them and superimpose them all over the place and they still work as a melodic unit.

[targuit]

Graham - I would just like to hear Reg play a ballad like Body and Soul as a solo chord melody. Is that so bad? Reg is always talking about referential systems and this and that. Now we have this talk of gravitational tones and three note cells and other things that are over one's head, to use Henry's term. I just think it would be nice to hear these concepts as applied to a ballad. And I'm willing to play a version, too. Ballad, solo, duo. So we can hear these concepts in action. I'm sure you could post a fine version, too.

All this sturm und drang to find notes to play over the song Body and Soul? I'm assuming beyond the actual melody notes with enclosures, ornaments, and Christmas lights?

"A good one is a Bb minor triad, it consists of Bb, Db and F, therefore fits nicely over the Ebm9 chord. So those triad notes are the main notes to use when improvising over the first chord (plus other passing tones are allowed, if I understood it correctly). " Actually a better one would be the Bb7 triad, which coincidentally comes next. Perhaps because the opening chords of the song are a iim7 - VI7 (which is the V7 of Ebm chord) - V7#5 .

Triads are always a nice idea - should they be a minor or major third above the principal chord, a major or minor fifth above, or is it random? I'm partial to ninths and thirteenths myself, except when a flatted fifth sounds better. Come on....there are only twelve tones in a scale and I'm betting that some of those chromatic tones sound just lousy as triads unless you resolve them. But then again, this is all

"over my head, and talking about Coltrane and Bird with less than abject adoration, well you know...."

When you figure out which three notes to use, do tell me.
I should get out more...maybe he means referentially...or something.

[grahambop]

Graham - I would just like to hear Reg play a ballad like Body and Soul as a solo chord melody. Is that so bad? Reg is always talking about referential systems and this and that. Now we have this talk of gravitational tones and three note cells and other things that are over one's head, to use Henry's term. I just think it would be nice to hear these concepts as applied to a ballad. And I'm willing to play a version, too. Ballad, solo, duo. So we can hear these concepts in action. I'm sure you could post a fine version, too.

I should get out more...maybe he means referentially...or something.

Well I've got to go and buy some coolant for the car, then mow the lawn, then make lunch, then practise Dancing in the Dark for the 'practical standard', plus I've been playing a Bach cello prelude on the classical guitar and I would like to have another go at that today, then I'd need to study Jordan's triad thingies a lot before trying to apply them to Body and Soul, then it's back to work tomorrow (kicking off a bulk fund switch involving millions of pounds, so I need to keep my brain focussed on that tomorrow), so sadly I doubt I'm going to get round to it! Life's too short as always.

I think the point about these 'systems' is they always sound over complicated because words are very poor at explaining music really. The aim is to get past the 'words' and get the inner understanding. Then you can start making music. Anyway Jordan already did some videos which gave an idea of his results.

[vhollund]

Jay,

Simple use of hybrids :

7th + minor 9 chords
Play minor triad from the 5th

Maj7 chords
Play major triad from the 5th

mb57
Play minor triad from the m3

That simple.

[targuit]

vholland - I do know what you listed already, if indeed that was the point to be made. I was waiting for the professors to express it. Of course, you did in a brief and concise post, as opposed to multi paged threads of obscure ramblings. But nothing about references or three note cells in triads? Tsk, tsk....

In any case if a player is seeking a 'fool-proof' way of determining what notes to play over a particular chord in a particular progression, the use of the 'formulas' you cited might help them. So would developing taste and technique.