Body and Soul Analysis

[targuit]

I am going to link Peter Sprague's two videos of his solo playing of Desafinado. Apart from his brilliant grasp of solo playing, watch the second video for an example of how a real musician discusses his arrangement. No "referential" shit, no talking down to the unwashed - just explaining things in musicians terms. With the understanding that those who are listening just might have some intelligence to get beyond vague BS and deal with the music.

[vhollund]

Are you still talking about improvisation ?
You can play Bb7 on Ebm in a solo
In theory it clashes ...but it doesn't.
You can also play Bbm
You can play many things
And F major too

It might be a useful thing to notice, that Body and Soul somewhat starts with a ii V7sub to Db
And everything that happens before Db can be approached as a sort of suspens leading to Db

[mr. beaumont]

Bb minor triad: Bb, Db, F.

Ebm9 chord: Eb, Gb, Bb, Db, F

We're arguing about this?

Jay, you've done the "put up or shut up" rpute already...but if you really want to record again to prove something, just play the tune, improvise a chorus, and be done with it--no arrangements, no vocals, no elaborate percussion track. Put on a backing track and blow.

[mr. beaumont]

But it's not useless. It's actually really cool. Grab a guitar and try it.

I might write an etude using this idea tomorrow, for just the first 8 bars. Really. Try it before you knock it.

[jordanklemons]

Hot damn Pete...just checked out your website and was flipping through the gallery and saw a bunch of pictures of you playing with Remy Labbe on trumpet? Man...what a small world. I worked with him a bit in the NYU Jazz Orchestra. Too funny. Love all the connections. Unfortunately I never really got to know him that well...just too many guys to really hang with everyone. And I think I remember him coming in part way through the year with us. But seemed like a good dude. Pretty sure he jumped on board when one of our other horn players had to leave and came out for the rest of our rehearsals and our big blue note gig at the end of the year.

Tune's sound great man!

[pamosmusic]

Remy! Back in Belgium now though ... alas... he was a drummer friend's roommate ... we had some super fun reading sessions in that building.

[jordanklemons]

I might write an etude using this idea tomorrow, for just the first 8 bars.

Man, I would love to hear it if you write something! Really couldn't care less if they're with 'my' 4 note structures or ones you chose yourself just from listening/analyzing. As I keep saying, a lot of this is still relatively new for me. Have thought about writing some etudes or contrafacts using it, but haven't yet. Still in analysis/charting mode. Would love to check out what you come up with!

[vhollund]

I don't know which Real Book version you have but
In mine there's the Bb7, not a Bb7b9sus which does change the sound, and then there's a D7 Vsub down to Db instead of the Ab13 too

[mr. beaumont]

You and me have different definitions of reharmonization then.

Do you actually play the Real Book changes as written? Or is this a big wind up?

[vhollund]

When playing chords
Unless something else is agreed on i play the major third in the Bb7 yes
And the D7 that has become part of the sound of the tune

There are chords that would work well with hybrids but not all of them, atleast not while playing the theme

If we are talking improvisation, theres a a lot more options than the 1 hybrid / voicing pr chord indicated

[henryrobinett]

I don't know which Real Book version you have but
In mine there's the Bb7, not a Bb7b9sus which does change the sound, and then there's a D7 Vsub down to Db instead of the Ab13 too

Yeah. I wouldn't call that reharmonization.

[vhollund]

Well that is what it is never the less

and without a concrete arrangement idea to back the Bb7susb9 up, it sounds like an error without the strong dominant in the beginning
If you have an idea it should be different enough from the original not to sound like an error

Why leave out the D7 sound we all connect to the tune ?
It seems like an error and a missed opportunity where we could have added a hybrid like
AmMaj7/D or E/D or C+/D or Bm/C etc

And Gb7 is already a Vsub (to Fm)
It seems like an error to 'resub' it back when it was written that way initially

And how does C with E in bass suddenly fit in as leading to Ebm ?
Are we suddenly going crazy all out with the alteration
Wouldn't it be a more cohesive example just to make it an E9 ?

Note : I might be overly criticizing from having to deal with attempts at slander and bickering and others overly sensitive narcissisme
My initial idea of fun is to share information and experience as presumed equals

But apparently people more than often act like idiots here, so that doesn't really make a difference does it ?

No but seriusly You guys should make your own reality show !

[jordanklemons]

And how does C with E in bass suddenly fit in as leading to Ebm ?
Are we suddenly going crazy all out with the alteration
Wouldn't it be a more cohesive example just to make it an E9 ?

Assuming you're referring to the 2nd chord of bar 4....the chord was written as an Edim7 in the book I was looking at. Whether you agree with the book or not, that was simply my starting point. The melody note I was harmonizing was the C note on beat 3. So the chord with the melody on top is spelled

E-G-Bb-Db-(C)

This is actually an Edim7b13...which from my own explorations, I've found that I enjoy treating it as a fully diminished 7 chord with a major triad built on the b6 in the upper structure. That's a Cmajor triad on top of an Edim7 chord. My ear likes it.

And the theory backs it up.

E-G-Bb-Db-C

re-order the notes....

C-E-G-Bb-Db

For my own personal reasons I chose to leave the Bb out of the 4 note structure and utilize the Cmaj triad + the b2...the Db. I like how it sounds. You're free to do what you like with it. If you prefer E9...go for it.

[vhollund]

Yes you can play C7b9 /E
But it doesn't really add anything to the sound does it ?
Do you play C penta or something that makes it usefull to note ?

You didn't comment on the other more important chords i mentioned
I assume it is because you where surprised about these
Don't you hear the D9 in all the versions of the greats ?
And why does your "real book" changes differ from real book ?

[henryrobinett]

Well as they say . . . never mind. To me reharmonization is more than just tritone sub or other voicing of the basic chord, be it sus or b9 when it's written or melodically indicates something else. The RB is not the actual source. You have to go to Green, the composers score or many versions played to determine what the chords are, otherwise everything is potentially a reharmonization, as almost everything has become post beboppers.

When I think of reharmonization on the tune I think of something -- top of my head - A7+11, F/Ab, Eb/Ab / Gb/D D13+11 / Ab/Db

But I don't know. Too much thinking. I'm not analyzing. I just played it and it was ok.

[vhollund]

I thought that's what you meant
But a Vsub is also a reharmonisation, at least in the textbook definition
The actual source is from 1930 yes, but Real Book has been source for what, 40 years of recordings of the tune ?
And when he writes "real book" as source, then one would think Real Book should be the source

Cool I'll try the reharm tomorrow
I can see the aproach you use is to choose a chord with the melody somewhere in there on top
Mostly dominant chords

[bako]

Jordan raised several interesting ideas that I can remember without looking back.

Individualized interpretation of a melody

Example given, that F is the featured note in the opening phrase of Body and Soul and not Eb.

A meticulous classical performer might prepare new repertoire by establishing a hierarchy of
meaning for all the notes in a score. This individualized analysis, whether it is arrived at painstakingly
or spontaneous to the moment, becomes an organizing construct for the interpretation.
One of the potential pitfalls, that which sounds great in the moment might make less sense,
be out of balance in the context of the larger picture. An individual moment of brilliance has
to be weighed under the microscope of the overall form. The most skilled improvisors can project ahead.

Comparative experiment:

Is an improvisor best served by establishing a singular framework as a springboard to interpretation
or by the flexibility to hear a song organized in multiple ways?

Individuation of chord colors within the same overall functional family, major, minor, dominant.

As I understand it, Jordan described essentially a meditative process exploring the details of what each interval contributes to the overall chordal story and making decisions about preferences, "sweet spots" for each chord type,
made manifest via triads, principal examples verbally referenced Bbm on Ebm9 (5,b7,9)
and Bm on Cma9#11 (7,9,#11).

Anyway, my own tendency is to enter through the door of extreme generalization, laying out all viable sounds
for major, minor and dominant function in and out of progressional/song context.
I start with all single notes, then all intervals, then all three note structures (not only triads), four notes and upward to
seven and more. I use modes as my basic filter to help organize different note collections.
Chord pairs, scale pairs, approach chords, alternate routes to a destination, etc., many points of potential access.
I find comfort in a universe of infinite possibility.

The basic method:

lay out an overview
begin to chip away at the details

There are always more variations on the table than will ever be fully absorbed, but perhaps that is ok.
I consider this type of study to be ear training through conscious exposure.

I am not a master improvisor, just another hard working musical fool articulating personal opinions and best guesses. Consider yourself warned.

[targuit]

Graham - "No the VERY FIRST CHORD is Ebm. You can't replace THE VERY FIRST CHORD by a Bb7 chord, it clashes and sounds wrong. I don't mean the SECOND CHORD which is, as you say, Bb7. But you can use the NOTES of a Bb MINOR TRIAD over the VERY FIRST CHORD because they fit in the chord of Eb minor. Man, I give up!"


I am distressed that you seem to be misinterpreting what I said regarding the use of triads superimposed over a particular chord for improvisation purposes. I was not talking about Substitutions.

So I am going to make this principle stated as simply and concretely as I can. This will involve a statement of a generic "rule" or principle, the use of specific chords, key, and the acknowledgment that in practice there may always be exceptions to the applicability of the general "rule".

For the sake of the argument, let us assume that the first chord in Body And Soul in the key of Db is an Ebm7. What I said is a general "rule" is the following.

When you are playing over a chord such as this Ebm7, you can solo with the chord tones (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc) as well as the tones of the chord which would be the V7 - major or minor depending on the context - of that chord.

For the sake of simplicity, I will list some chords and their corresponding V7ths, which I will term chord dyads.

C - Gm7
A - Em7
E - Bm7

Let's look at this last example, E- Bm7, and the respective chord tones involved. Note that this is not a progression (E to Bm7) but simply notes in the second chord (Bm7) that can be used over the first (E).

E : E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D#7 - E. Bm7 : B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A# - B .

Note, of course, that you can use the V major rather than minor to the first chord as well.

B : B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A# - B .

What happens if you raise the root of the V7 major or minor dyad to the original chord in question - E ?

Raising the Bm7 root up a third, you get a D major. D - E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D. This works well if the original chord is an Em7. Em7 : E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D# - E .

Obviously, extensions such as 9ths, 11ths, 13ths are simply the continuation of the scale in question into the next octave with the corresponding intervals. The 9th is the 2nd. 11th is the 4th. The 13th is the 6th with respect to the root.

It is also true that in some circumstances you may need to raise or lower a particular interval by a half step in the context of your improvisation. But nonetheless, this "rule" or principle works rather well in the context of improvising.

In fact, non other than Joe Pass in an instructional video discussing jazz improvisation, paraphrasing, asks the question "what chord tones can you use when improvising over a particular chord in a progression?" At which point he looks directly into the camera and says, "Well, you can always use the tones of the V chord to the chord in question." Ie, if your chord is E, you can use the chord tones of B major or B minor.

This is a general rule to which there are exceptions but which works well because of the communality of chord tones in these chord dyad pairs.

I suspect that this is not a new insight to most, but it is a fundamental principle in my opinion that works well in most situation. But ultimately, the choice of notes to use in an improvisation over a chord progression must be determined by what sounds right and pleasing to your ear.

Now I have presented a principle in clear and highlighted English, with specific examples to illustrate. If you think this is bunk, or if you have corollary principles or rules or suggestions, anyone please feel free to comment.

I hope this post is a model of clarity.

[bako]

Do you think of modes as groups of intervals too ?

I think of modes as a one stop shopping mall for harmonic intervals.
Not every possible permutation, but an excellent starter kit.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Matt - VHolland has given the post a "like". Which I do appreciate, as he has been trying to clarify the original rambling post. If in your enlightened state find this post irrelevant to the original thread - and if you have a particular insight into the issues which you could illuminate the rest of us on - it would be fine for you to explain your thought process and reflection.

It would seem that, while the original intent or 'theory' is still somewhat obscure, as best I can determine having waded through the pages of commentary from the beginning, is that the issue - paraphrasing - was to experiment with finding what intervals beyond the obvious notes (tonic, thirds, fifths, and sevenths) could be used in an improvisation, focusing on the chord extensions (ninths, elevenths, thirteenths) in a triad form. The purpose apparently is find those extensions which as tones used in repetitive cells of notes which have "gravitational pull" or significance in terms of the underlying chord specifically in the progress one by one.

If I have misunderstood or paraphrased the intention incorrectly, I would welcome someone - anyone - to correct my perception.

Given that you hurl out the invective that my post above is irrelevant and "insulting", perhaps you would condescend to illuminate us clearly specifically as to what your understanding of the original poster's intention and contention are and to specify why you believe my post is irrelevant. If you can accomplish both those objectives, I would be happy to respond. But I fail to see anything in your posts here thus far that even refer intelligently to the original thread's purported objective.

I understood the conversation to be somewhat about the use of TRIADS in improvisation. I didn't really get anything about that from your post.

I suppose I could be mistaken, and the conversation is actually about any old approach at improvising over body and soul. I suppose it's also possible that the original intent was for us to post a chord melody version of the tune.

But I think you're having your own conversation in the middle of everybody else's.

[targuit]

Read Guitarzen's posts on page one.

Realize that these UPPER STRUCTURE TRIADS are the extensions of the specific chord(s) in that measure in question. Using the extensions as material for improvisation over the specific chord(s). But the extensions are just the same intervals ONE OCTAVE UP. In a C chord the high D note or 9th is just the 2nd interval from the tonic C up an octave.

I know you know this, Matt. So, if one is using the extensions as materia prima for tones to layer or improvise from over a specific chord, you are still using intervals drawn from the same scale(s) potentially over the chord. True, you can focus on the extensions as some triad over the basic Ebm7 chord, for example. But the extension is just an interval inherent in the chord itself because it helps define the chord.

Certainly you can find dissonant chromatic tones, which might still be fine if used to play "outside" or to resolve as slurs or approach tones or enclosures. Klemons focuses a lot on "tension and release" issues, though as Guitarzen addresses correctly in my opinion, tension and resolution per se are not strictly an issue and Klemons interprets them in a somewhat idiosyncratic fashion. Nonetheless, he is entitled to fashion his own ideas and improvisatory approaches.

On the first page of this thread Guitarzen makes a very pertinent observation regarding "white noise" or the notion that if you superimpose nearly every note of the scale upon a single chord, you get the equivalent of "white light". A kind of lack of color discrimination. But you or others may disagree.

"But I think you're having your own conversation in the middle of everybody else's." - Matt. Why specifically??

Used to be a 'free country'. On the other hand, you, like me, may be a victim of this discussion being "beyond your ken and interest, especially if you start discussing Parker and Coltrane without proper adoration, and well, you know..."

[targuit]

Matt - I was going to explain but, hell, it's not worth the breath or effort. So if no one wants to explore Body and Soul as actual music here, that's fine. I did some preliminary recording last night, marred principally by the sounds of pots and pans clanging. But things came out really well. At least from the perspective of someone who is not a jazz guitarist but "...well, you know....". Btw, I'm just teasing Henry. But I will stop.

I can see that you did not read Guitarzen's posts apparently. Too bad. But continue on in abstract contemplation in search for the Holy Grail of improv. Hope you find it. Me, I'll just continue with...well, you know....making music that you hopefully want to procreate to. Forgive me, Charlie....where ever you are Bye,bye!

[mr. beaumont]

Ok, playing around with ideas today...liking where it's heading. I'm sounding very Lee Konitz.

My ear wants more tension on chord #2...looking at an F diminished triad there now, or maybe an E major triad. My brain likes four note chords too...so maybe Emaj7...oooh...Can't seem to pull myself away from wanting the third in there (on the Bb7)...but in modern applications, a sus chord can have a third...

That's why I like stuff like this. Makes ya THINK.

[jordanklemons]

Yes you can play C7b9 /E

I'm not playing a C7b9, I'm playing a C triad with a Db note added. You're welcome to treat it how you like.

But it doesn't really add anything to the sound does it ?

Why are you asking me? What good will my answer do you? Try it and listen. If you like it, take it...it's yours to use. If you don't like it, throw it away.

Do you play C penta or something that makes it usefull to note ?

'

No. I find it useful just the way it is.

Earlier in the thread you stated that you "didn't read anywhere near half of your [my] posts." I know you want me to write less and stop being so controlling. Perhaps if you take the time to read the posts that you said you ignored, most of your questions would be answered. You still seem quite confused about what my goals are and what I'm after. I've said on multiple occasions that I'm not using any scales. Help us out by taking the time to read what's already been written so you don't have to ask me to clutter up the thread more. Thank you.

You didn't comment on the other more important chords i mentioned
I assume it is because you where surprised about these
Don't you hear the D9 in all the versions of the greats ?

I didn't realize they were more important.

No, that is not why I didn't comment on them. And no, I do not hear D9 in every version. I listened to all the ones you shared and the Coltrane that Guitarzen shared. I heard D9 in only about half of them.

Have your opinion now changed concerning what you mentioned as a sort of unwarranted "warnings" Jordan ?
Or concerning fitting in a structure in different places of a scale/tonality ?

No.




Short and sweet. Just how you like it.

[jordanklemons]

Ok, playing around with ideas today...liking where it's heading. I'm sounding very Lee Konitz.

My ear wants more tension on chord #2...looking at an F diminished triad there now, or maybe an E major triad. My brain likes four note chords too...so maybe Emaj7...oooh...Can't seem to pull myself away from wanting the third in there (on the Bb7)...but in modern applications, a sus chord can have a third...

That's why I like stuff like this. Makes ya THINK.

Hope you'll share what you come up with once you got it. Though frankly, I would totally understand if you didn't want to put yourself out there in this thread at this point.

If you end up going with the EMaj triad/Bb7...that's one of my favorite tonalities! Gives us the Bb7b9b5 or Bb7#11b9. I am using it over the F7 in bar 6 and again during the turnaround...which I don't think I wrote into the pdf, but I play through in the video. I find the B natural note of the E triad, which is the b9 against the Bb7 chord, is not stable enough to be considered a 'sweet spot'. It's b9 nature just begs to resolve down to the root too much. So I always add the Bb note in as the 4th note. And I actually treat the E-G#-Bb as the resolved triad notes, and the B natural as the 4th 'tension' note. Works better in my ear.

I'm curious what you come up with.

And I really haven't gotten too much into the diminished triad structures much...just enough to know that the Fdim would sound great. Gives that good ol' 7b9 sound. But I haven't explored it enough yet to know what 4th note I'd choose for it. If you find something that sounds good, hope you'll share...I'd be very curious!