-
Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Hey man! Checked out your sight. I dig the trad thing. I'm pretty weak at it. I just don't listen to it all that much. I played a couple sessions with this sax/clarinet guy that was way into it a while back. He sounded great! I was just holding on for dear life trying to keep up. Such a different language! And I just don't listen to that stuff enough. Tons of fun though! It's always makes me feel like I chasing after a train! Or being chased by one!
Glad the last post helped clear up the confusion.
-
05-19-2015 01:38 PM
-
Glad it helped! Originally Posted by srlank
I'm the same way. I didn't start learning this stuff in the context of a tune. I started it slooooooowly. My teacher would give me a small handful of chords, all within the same 'category'...like maybe 6 dominant chords, or 4 min7 chords, etc.
The starting point was actually ear training. Simply being able to hear the different between each of the chords immediately when they're played as a full voicing on the piano.
Then, once I could hear each as a unique sound...we would analyze the structure, talk about the triad, and talk about what the best 4th note would be.
Then I would sit with ONE of the chords for a while and play around with it. If I could get comfortable with it in one key, I'd try it in another. Then if that got easier...It's try moving it through the circle of 5th or some other cycle.
Then I'd move on to another chord type.
Only months later did I try and apply it to tunes. So I'm right there with you. I'm slow at this stuff. I think it's probably better that way. Nothing learned too quickly usually sticks. It's gotta seep into the muscle memory, the ear, the visual mapping, etc DEEPLY before we can use it in a natural way. That takes time. Sometimes I'll sit with this stuff with my metronome as 30 bpm working on one tonality for an hour or 2, just trying to give all my faculties a chance to catch up with what I want from them. But...I'm a bit insane like that at times. I don't recommend that unless you REALLY know that it's something you want. Otherwise you'll go crazy! hahaha
-
Seems like it's making sense to more people now? That's awesome!
And I'm loving seeing people sharing videos.
Jeff, you talked about writing etudes using this stuff and that got me inspired...so last night, I wrote one out. But it's not melodic, it's harmonic. I wrote out a short 8 bar harmonic etude to help get some of this stuff into my comping vocabulary.
The idea for me was to use the 4 note structures (from the OP) as my chords, rather than the real book changes. To try and put my chord voicings more in the upper structure of the harmonies.
I used my iPhone to record the audio/video AND to play the backing track from my iRealB app...so the mix might be crummy. But I did make sure to take the rhodes out, so it's just guitar/bass/drums.
I put one chord voicing per beat (except for one exception). I would almost never comp like this in real life. But again...it's an etude. The idea for me was to start working these voicings into my fingers through moving harmony and to focus on voice leading.
I'm attaching the etude if anyone wants to give it a shot.
-
Originally Posted by vhollund
This Coltrane version? Sorry dude. I just don't see any D7's. If you think that's just my proud nonsense or me living in denial...I don't know what to tell you. I didn't hear any D7's when I listened to it. And later, when GuitarZen sent me the transcription, my ear was correct. It's just not there. If you think that makes me feel proud, then you don't know me very well. There's basically nothing about the conversation you and I have had that gives me the slightest sense of pride.
I would agree though that it would be more helpful for others to transcribe these arrangements on their own and not just take my word for it. I don't have perfect pitch...but I'm pretty sure there's nothing blatantly wrong with any of my transcriptions of each of the videos that I wrote out for you in my last post. If you don't like them or disagree, that's fine.
Anybody who can play basic chords and has an okay ear should be able to hear the bass player and the chords in the videos and play what I wrote in my analysis and see that I was pretty spot on. And anyone who enjoys working on their ear and transcribing is of course welcome to give it a shot as well and share what they found.
-
The Vsub sound is in there for sure, you just have to listen for it.
I find it a bit wierd that you don't know a minimum the history of the song you analyse
And even stranger that you try to argue it
I know you want to look good in the eyes of everyone, and that that's why you've been so hostile to the critisism or just different perspectives, but your denials, and here of one of the characteristic components of the song, are ...well, not very clever and not serving the analysis / the music at all.
Besides, you where talking about "more than half the songs posted" and then you come up with a partition of just one song ?! Where are the others ?
You don't have to post partitions for me, you can just name the ones that you heard without the characteristics of a Vsub or the downwards half step movement
If you listen carefully to Coltrane again I'm sure you will here that d ...and an f# too
Last edited by vhollund; 05-19-2015 at 05:26 PM.
-
Thanks man! I'm surprised you'd find it difficult to play trad. swing tunes, I'd thought for guys like you it would be a piece o' cake, since the chord progressions are pretty simple... That's why I love it, too haha. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I'm trying to stretch out a bit too, not just copy Charlie Christian, bring something else, that's why I took interest in this thread, and I'm learning a lot here... But yea, I do love driving rhythms that old style jazz demands, can't stray away from it too far.
-
Jordan's Etude (another vantage point)
Triad + 1 note
Bbm + Eb ..... Abm + Bb
Gb + Ab ..... Ebm + C
Absus + Bb ..... Db + Bb ..... Bbdim + Ab
Db + Eb ..... C + Db
Gb + Ab ..... Gb + Ab
Bb + Eb ..... Cdim + F
Db + Eb ..... Db + Gb ..... Fbaug + Gb
Db + Bb
Each line represents one measure.Last edited by bako; 05-19-2015 at 05:04 PM.
-
Originally Posted by vhollund
I already did that for you vhollund. I went through and explained what I heard in each video. You labelled my response as "lengthy proud nonsens and denial" and reiterated that it was in fact D7 in all of the videos. I'm not going to write it all out again for you.
I only shared this one transcription because it's the only transcription I have a physical copy of from the videos shared. GuitarZen was kind enough to share it with me after I transcribed the harmonic movement and a few bars of Coltrane's blowing. I made a comment about what I was hearing and how much I dug it...so he shared it with me. If you think that my ear AND the editor that published this transcription are wrong, you have every right to feel that way.
-
Yeah, it's just a whole different feel and approach. I would do things that I thought sounded cool and my buddy on clarinet would let me know that my stuff was a more modern approach, and he kept recommending that I try and stick with the stuff that was idiomatic to the authentic stuff. So I listened to it a good bit and tried my best. He was pulling out all sort of groups to show me. Some I'd heard of, some I hadnt...some 'real' trad stuff, some current 'trad stuff. It was fun! Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
-
@bako
There's a couple that you listed that aren't what I intended to you. I may have used them by accident as I wrote it last night pretty late after a gig, and I was tired.
But my intention was to use the triad + 1 groupings that I spoke about in the pdf from the OP. I'll have to go back and check to make sure I was using the right triad groupings for this etude.
Thanks.
-
There are 8 songs + Coltrane +Reg Originally Posted by jordanklemons
All have the characteristic
Whether it's D7 or D9 or D+, and even quoting of the descending half-steps in the solo of Coleman Hawkins, or with Billie Holliday just a simple thematic line eb d db
They are ALL aware of the sound and ALL playing it as part of the arrangement, even Coltrane whos arrangement is the most contemporary of them all
Second play through of A there's a whole 1 1/2 Bar of D+ !
How can you not hear that ?
You not being able to hear it, or being in denial or what-ever, doesn't make it go away, Jordan
But you know what, just keep playing your Ab9 with a Ebm as hybrid instead,
And do make sure to take it to your first jam session !
I wish you and all your students well,
see you later.Last edited by vhollund; 05-19-2015 at 07:00 PM.
-
Cheers and likewise to you V. Originally Posted by vhollund
-
I wish you guys would quit fighting. Body and Soul isn't worth getting all worked up over.
-
You should totally take this whole vibey thing you've got going on to your first jam session and see how that goes ... Originally Posted by vhollund
And do make sure to take it to your first jam session !
-
Haha
Maybe if people where so arrogant, pretentious and condecendent, to me, and to eachother, in real life i would !
If I had a pupil with Jordans attitude, I'd tell him to stop talking and to have confidence in my method
When I go play jazz with friendly and pro people saturday at the edge of a swimmingpool, no one will try to slander and distort eachothers words or musical ideas into negativity, or step on eachother to look better themselves
I'll be encouraging to new ideas in music and to others experience, and then l'll collect my pay with a smile, congratulate the happy married couple, drink a glass of champagne, and be on my way.Last edited by vhollund; 05-20-2015 at 03:14 AM.
-
If you haven't met any arrogant, pretentious or condescending jazz musicians then it sounds like you haven't been around many jazz musicians. I've heard that new York jazzers are the most intense and serious guys when it comes to music. maybe you're just misinterpreting his dedication. Originally Posted by vhollund
Haha
Maybe if people where so arrogant, pretentious and condecendent, to me, and to eachother, in real life i would !
If I had a pupil with Jordans attitude, I'd tell him to stop talking and to have confidence in my method
When I go play jazz with friendly and pro people saturday at the edge of a swimmingpool, no one will try to slander and distort eachothers words or musical ideas into negativity, or step on eachother to look better themselves
I'll be encouraging to new ideas in music and to others experience, and then l'll collect my humble pay with a smile, congratulate the happy married couple, and be on my way.
-
I've never been to New York, but I have many friends who went there
I'm sure there's probably much of that, but that's not the things they tell me about NY
They tell me people are openminded
The saxophone player I'm playing with saturday, saw Kenny Garreth in a bar 15 years ago chit chatted some and took a lesson from him afterwards
A young gifted pianoplayer i know went there and met with a legendairy pianoplayer who saw his potential and mentored him for a while
Actually when I think of the New Yorkers I've met here (Europe) they've often had an incredibly open attitude, strong presence and good energy.
Intense too
Ofcourse I've met a bunch and there are many arrogant and unprofessional people in the world, for sure, but I don't play with their kind for very long,
Unless the money is good, I can't see why I should be bothered
Often their strategy is off too anywayLast edited by vhollund; 05-20-2015 at 04:24 AM.
-
05-20-2015, 04:20 AM #193destinytot GuestFrom a bridesmaid's slipper!drink a glass of champagne
Thanks for posting the 'triad + 1 note' summary, bako. Although I understand from Jordan's reply that a couple of them may not show what he intended, your summary helped me get more from Jordan's first video. I've now watched it several times, and I'll be watching so again.
I really like the approach, and I got a lot from thinking about what speaks to me and why/how. I'd like to apply it to the kinds of tunes that are currently beyond my experience - as opposed to beyond my (ahem) ken - specifically, tunes without lyrics.
Though I'm self-taught, I think I'm also advantaged by experience as a singer and as a linguist; I have a well-developed ear for prosodic elements, and I naturally defer to lyrics in their rhythmic and harmonic context. This works well - but I think it limits me to standards. (edit/add) There are lots of instrumental tunes that I'd like to play, and which I'll look at/listen to meticulously for 'triad + 1' opportunities, eg. In Your Own Sweet Way, Beatrice, Minority.
Now that I've started working on my chops (so that I can solo with 'confidence and authority' - you know, like Charles Atlas), I'm curious - and a little more ambitious. This approach is a handle on a door to a different world. That is a huge boon - for which, thanks again, Jordan!Last edited by destinytot; 05-20-2015 at 09:20 AM. Reason: add
-
Ok, so what's your problem then? Why are you hanging on this thread with nothing to offer? Im sorry, but one thing about New Yorkers... We hate to waste time! You dont dig the approach, fine, but why clutter the space? Like, me and the OP are in the different genres, but Im very much appreciate what he got to offer, and I dont see what you got to offer exactly? Sorry for being so straightforward maybe, its just a New York thing, ya know! Originally Posted by vhollund
-
Lets pick a new tune and try the concept... Here's an old vid I posted for Dolphin Dance, slow moving harmonic tune, but cool... maybe use it or another... but lets move on with the approach...
-
Sweet ^^
@Hep, its over
I'm not starting over with you
"New Yorker" or not
If you find it interesting i can fill you in on PM later
Basically I don't mind being unpopular with some, if it can help diversity of opinions / perspectives, make people stop being so crappy to eachother, and potentially can help make this a better place to share ideas/ experience in the long run.
Have fun !
(Please respond in PM to keep it on topic from here)Last edited by vhollund; 05-20-2015 at 11:02 AM.
-
Dolphin's a great one...let's see, just doing the first 8 (yeah, I'll take the easy part)
some cool easy approaches...obviously not the only way you could see it...
Bbmaj | Bb- | Bbmaj | C- | G- | G- | G- | Cmaj |
-
Basic changes Dolphin Dance 1st 8 bars
Ebma7 | Bbm7 | Ebma7 | Dm7b5 G7 | Cm7 | Ab7 or Abma7 | Cm7 | Am7 D7 ||
Jeff,
Not understanding the relationship of your triads in relationship to the basic chords.
Bbmaj | Bb- | Bbmaj | C- | G- | G- | G- | Cmaj |
???
Thanks,
Bako
-
I just took a quick rip through some of Jordan's ideas, others just simplified...
so Bb maj over Ebmaj7 gives me Bb, D, F, or 5, 7, 9 over Ebmaj...and so on.
I played through my example quickly...it's not perfect, but it sets up some relationships...
-
Yeah Dolphin Dance is going to be a tough one. It's got a ton of changes and if this stuff is new, a tune like this can be super tricky. So fair warning. But I'm always up for a challenge. I went ahead and analyzed the tune this afternoon and have been shedding some basic improv ideas over it with the triad +1 approach. I'll try and film a little video and share so we can compare notes. Looking forward to hearing other people play and seeing what triads they chose to use to harmonize the melody and bring out the specific tonalities of the tune!
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Yesterday, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions