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Alright, so I filmed a little video.
A couple of quick points first.
I know earlier in the thread, the question was brought up of whether or not this stuff would work as well if it were sped up. The easier answer is yes. My teacher can burn through changes with this stuff and it sounds amazing. But he's been at it a long time. And many other modern guys utilize this stuff at fast tempos and sound great (Rosenwinkel, Mark Turner, etc).
Just the other day I was analyzing the melody to Blues For Alice and found these triadic ideas all over the place. Just in the first few bars Bird gives us a straight up FMaj triad, Amin triad, Gdim triad, Dmin triad, etc. Plus he sort of hints at least one other triad, but doesn't fully play it...instead ornaments it with an extra note. And that's just the first 4 bars!
Anyways...that said...just like learning anything new, I don't find it a good idea to start fast or complex. I like to go slow and simple until it starts to get easy, obvious, and boring. Then I will start to speed it up or apply it to complex situations.
This tune has a ton going on. And while it's not burning fast, it's a good bit faster than how I was playing B&S. So there's very little chromaticism in my playing here. For those who watched my video playing over the A section of B&S, you may recall I was adding TONS of chromatic lines with my melodies to tie the 4 note groupings together. I did a little bit of that here. But way less. Just too much going on, too fast.
I did my best with a first take here. I'm reading my triad groupings off the chart as I go. I played 3 choruses. I can hear each chorus get a little more musical in my ear. The 1st is rough....very mechanical sounding. The 2nd, it seems like I'm starting to get a little bit comfortable. By the 3rd I actually hear some musical statements being made. Again...the idea is to shed this stuff in slow and simple situations until we naturally engrain them in our ears, eyes, and fingers so they just come out. To me...the application of it to this tune is a little premature for me. I'm just not quite there yet.
But I always enjoy a good challenge, so I wanted to give it a shot anyway...and I figured I wouldn't chop off the 1st chorus from the video for the sake of honesty, full disclosure, and respect to the process of learning. #firsttake!
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05-20-2015 10:09 PM
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05-20-2015, 11:37 PM #202destinytot Guest
Very compelling demonstration - thank you! I can tell I'm going to learn a lot from trying this.
I'm setting aside some time to begin looking at this piece a few bars at a time; first, at the piano for 'triad + 1' (melody), then I'll look at voicing them on guitar. Finally, back to the piano for a few triad-based lines - which I'll notate ('scaffolding', support for ears).Last edited by destinytot; 05-20-2015 at 11:40 PM.
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I have been following this thread. I must have missed it, if it is here...but when you say "triad + 1", what note(interval) is the 1?
Any help clearing this up?
Thanks,
edh
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Honestly, to me...that's the trickiest part. The concept of the upper structure triad itself is really simple. Analyzing the melody of the tune against the harmony to figure out what the upper structure should/could be...a little trickier. Once you pick the upper structure out...deciding the 4th note can sometimes take a little bit of poking around.
Originally Posted by edh
There's sort of a general set of rules that my teacher passed on to me...but frankly, without being able to sit talk in person with someone, and play different examples at the piano, that part of the system is a little too tricky to just type out. There are so many exceptions. Even having it explained to me in person, and hearing the stuff, and being able to question all of it and poke at it with him in lessons...it still took me time to get. And we mostly talked about major triads. Again...other triads can behave a little differently.
We're mostly dealing with upper structure harmony...meaning 9s, 11s, and 13s. Sometimes some 7s or lower structure stuff will end up there as well. Every chord type is a little different.
So generally the best place to start looking for the 4th note is to go back to the lower structure. The notes that harmonically sit lower in the chord. 3rds and 7ths are great. 5ths too. But it all depends. Sometimes some of those notes are already in the U.S. triad. So then we move up through the chord tones. We also have to be careful not to create unwanted sounds. Like we wouldn't want to add a 4th note that's a half or whole step below the root of the U.S. triad. This would make it sound like we're just running a 7th chord arpeggio. Which a big part of this is to get away from the sound of just running arpeggios.
The goal of the 4th note is to create tension and movement within the U.S. triad. But it also acts like the glue that ties the upper structure of the chord into the lower structure. So again...3rds, 7ths, and 5ths are a great place to start. Just be aware that there are exceptions and you have to use your ear and listen and make choices.
I don't know if that helps. I hope so. Again...that's the trickiest part of the whole thing.
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But, doesn't Blues for Alice (in the first four bars) use lower structure triads? Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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well Jordan...
Blues for Alice...
arent they just triads or 7th chords without roots? No extension even except couple of b9's...
It's like you have only bass and everything of it is sorted out into triads...Last edited by Jonah; 05-21-2015 at 11:07 AM.
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@Stuart and Jonah
Yes...there are a lot of, what we could call, lower structure triads in Blues for Alice. There are also upper structure triads going on ass well.
I believe in general use, when most people talk about upper structure triads, they're referring to any triad that contains a 9, 11, or 13...right? Or maybe some people consider the 7? I don't think so....I think it's only notes above the 7. But I always forget.
In Blues for Alice...Bird was outlining some basic 1-3-5 and 3-5-7 stuff...but it does get into the 9s (natural, b, and #) and I see some 11s as well.
I should point out that while I use the term upper structure triad a lot...I'm not necessarily using it in the 100% conventional sense. I'm not looking to force upper extensions into every chord. At least with this tune analysis idea, all I'm doing is seeing what chord tones the composer was hearing over each given chord type, constructing the chord that best matches that, and then taking out the 'upperist'????triad from it. It's not always going to be 9s 11s and 13s. When I play over a F6 chord, generally my triad is a plain FMaj (just like the melody starts on). Or if I'm playing over a basic min7 chord I'm probably going to use either an FMaj or Dmin triad (like the D-7 in bar 3 of Blues for Alice which has just a D minor triad in the melody). The idea is not necessarily to force every extension we can in. It's simply to find the triad that BEST suits the tonality we're going for.
And IF I'm trying to get at the tonality that the composer wanted for each chord in their tune (which is not always my starting point, but what this thread is all about), the 2 best things we can do are listen to their recordings of it and analyze the melody to see what types of chord tones they were using to compose over it. imo
Like you both pointed out...we won't always get upper structure notes from the analysis. Just the notes that sit best within the tonality created between the melody and harmony. Which I often refer to as an upper structure triad within the context of this conversation, because I'm not sure what else to call it.
Anybody feel like trying to name it? I got nothing.
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I think I understand your point Jordan.. for me just the most interesting point in your approach was .. using melody hearing as tool to approach harmony... this seemed fresh form.. close to my undestanding music as meaning first of all...
But the next step with upper structures seemed more technical for me.. I appreciate it anyway..
But it's just common harmony (in general sense like 'harmony and melody are one).. If feel all right playing with Fmaj7 - I don' need to think of it as of a-minor 'upper' triad over F-bass... same thing about extended chords.. when these chords get quality of their component riads prevailing we get onto the other or to modality... it could be convinient tought from practical prospective - vizualising the fretboardLike you both pointed out...we won't always get upper structure notes from the analysis. Just the notes that sit best within the tonality created between the melody and harmony. Which I often refer to as an upper structure triad within the context of this conversation, because I'm not sure what else to call it.
Anybody feel like trying to name it? I got nothing.
Melody is the mask of harmony in most of harmonic music... harmony is soul and melody its body'd features)))
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That's cool man. We all have our own way of practicing and have to choose what works best for us. I would never tell anyone they're wrong for approaching things different. That's not what this thread is about. This stuff is only one piece of many things I work on. Though it is a big piece. Originally Posted by Jonah
And I used to agree with you about what you just said until my teacher blew my mind. As soon as I sat at the piano and started playing and listening there (much easier to hear things there than on the guitar, for a handful of reasons) I noticed something very bizarre. Playing an F note in my right hand (in the melody) when I'm playing an FMaj7 chord in my left didn't sound good to me. It sounded super tense. And when I resolved that F note in the melody down a half step to the E...I heard tension moving to resolution.
That one shift in my ear that took place of hearing that sort of made me distrust everything I knew. I was always taught that over FMaj7 you use an FMaj scale...and the strongest most stable note of that scale is the root note. My ear told me something different. And I had to go with my ear and trust it.
When you play an FMaj triad but 'resolve' the F note down a half step to E, you get an Amin triad. That's where that idea comes from for me.
Since checking all this stuff out, I often ask piano players questions to try and understand the way they think better. Every good piano player I know, when I ask them what type of FMaj chord they would use to harmonize an F note in the melody...none of them list FMaj7 as an option. The general options are F6, Fadd9, straight FMaj, or some other substitute chord. I find that fascinating. But these things are easier to hear on piano than guitar, so I suppose that makes sense.
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i remember a quote from Miles
when he was a kid playing with Bird
and trying to suss out what Bird was doing
something to the effect of ....
I started to play on the upper part of the
chord more and it opened up a door
to a new world
maybe this is that ?
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Who knows pingu? Definitely sounds similar. Or at least in a similar direction.
I can definitely see doors opening for me. But they're only just starting to crack and it's all moving very slowly. But hey...a crack is a crack. We all don't get the opportunity to hang and play with Bird! hahaha
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Yes I used to struggle with that a bit, i.e. in jazz an F chord = F maj7 for me, so how can you put an F melody note on top without it sounding horrible. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Eventually I worked out alternatives like F 6/9 etc. as you say, but it took a while.
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Also this stuff reminds me of Herbie Hancock's account of when Miles said something to him while he was playing, he wasn't sure but he thought Miles said 'don't play the butter notes!'. He thought Miles meant 'don't play using the 3rds and 7ths all the time'. Originally Posted by pingu
I often wondered how you would approach this, and this triad approach sounds like the answer!
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That's too funny grahambop. I almost mentioned that story. And then for the sake of brevity didn't. Plus, who knows what Miles really meant by that comment. But Herbie did interpret it to mean take the 3rds and 7ths out...which would put him in the higher register when comping. And I think we can all agree it didn't hurt his sound to explore that! hahaha
That dude can COMP! ha
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@Jordan
I actually would not choose Fmaj7 chord to harmonize F melody note too (in most cases I mean..) But on some other reasons
I think also probobaly difference in perception comes from the fact that I come from 'classical world' (and still belong to it) - not even classical guitar I mean - but music... piano, synphony...
so probably I come from the different door...
and I never learnt or practiced scales as usual for many guitar players.. and never associated scale with chord and all that.. not long ago I became familiar with that scale approach
Actually I could more or less accept scales approaches when I figured out them not like D-7 - play Dorian... but like
chord d-f-a-c-e-g-b .. (so it will be a scale if you change the notes order) I don't know why it is not common in jazz books to explain it like that.. it's much easier to understand like this
But when I began to hear these big chords as self-sufficient chord-masses - that was really change in hearing that finally gave me way to hearing jazz modality..
each goes its own way...
I play some piano.. I actually see fretboard like keys - it's easier for me to think of it like that
PS
I am also not criticizing you.. just asking the things that are curious for me..
I try any approach for jazz guitar that I come across - it always brings something in...
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It's kind of 'layers thinking' to me - characterestic for jazz... they play through changes but at the same time they like feel there's also some other pralell layer (even if it does not sound it is meant there)i remember a quote from Miles
when he was a kid playing with Bird
and trying to suss out what Bird was doing
something to the effect of ....
I started to play on the upper part of the
chord more and it opened up a door
to a new world
maybe this is that ?
Harmony and melody are one but at teh same time they make counterpoint...
So jazz thinking is to look for this relation even it is not given.. I thought about it when Jordan said 'tension between melody and harmony'.. I would probably never say like that))) different perspetcive.. very interesting...
Practically never happens in classical music (except instrumental pieces with ornamented melodic variation texture probably)
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In his biography Herbie said that someone later told him that Miles actually said 'don't play the bottom notes'! Which could mean the same thing, who knows! Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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No worries either way Jonah. I'm about to wrap up my masters degree in a few more months. I deal with criticism on an almost daily basis. If not from my teachers, then from the students and musicians I work with...and of course, if not from them, from myself. Originally Posted by Jonah
I know this thread went south for a little while. But I don't mind criticism at all. If anything, I relish it and always try and use it as an excuse and reminder to get back to practicing.
Because of you and a few other people, I took a more serious look at this type of analysis over Blues for Alice recently. Yes, I did find many 'lower structure' triads...but also some upper structure triads. Between you guys and something Jeff mentioned a few pages ago about writing etudes, I figured I'd try and write at least 1 chorus over the changes using my 4 note groupings. I actually liked what I wrote so much that I'm considering just using it as a contrafact and playing it with my groups.
I appreciate all of you guys taking the time to share your own thoughts and opinions, and I wouldn't have signed up for the forum and started this thread if I wasn't interested in hearing them and in answer questions to help others understand my thoughts and opinions.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Hahaha...who knows? Sco said that Miles used to tell him and the other guys TO PLAY 'the buttah notes'. Sco said he always thought that was just Miles telling them to play 'the BETTER notes'...but with that raspy, whisper, too lazy to try and pronounce things clearly way that Miles used to speak.
In a lot of ways, that idea is what's always keeping me driven with this stuff. I call them the 'sweet spots'...but I think it's the same idea as finding 'the better notes'...as Sco said he thought Miles was telling him. And now Sco seems to talk about that too...finding the better notes. They're all hiding inside all the different scales. I'd just rather throw everything out except the better notes and use them as my foundation to build things on top of...rather than try and sift through the scales to find them. Seems more straight to the point for me.
Who knows man? The man. The myth. The mystery. haha...gotta love what the sound he brought to the table though. So committed.
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I think it's funny that for years I played rock, in which an F chord could happily accommodate an F note on top. Then I had to re-learn all my chords for jazz, and remember to play an F maj7 instead, then I discovered I couldn't put an F on top of it any more! It was a bit frustrating. Originally Posted by Jonah
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Yeh.. it's switch from hearing in 4-voiced triad to 4-voices 7th chord as minimum harmonic unit...I think it's funny that for years I played rock, in which an F chord could happily accommodate an F note on top. Then I had to re-learn all my chords for jazz, and remember to play an F maj7 instead, then I discovered I couldn't put an F on top of it any more! It was a bit frustrating
It changes more than I exepcted actually.. in time it changed my understanding of harmonic means
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Pardon if I'm oversimplifying, but isn't this all a bit like "On CMaj7 play from G"?
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean V. Do you mean the G triad? Or do you mean from the G note? Originally Posted by Vladan
If you mean to play from the G note...we may be talking about two different ideas. I've heard beboppers talk about (and use a lot) the idea of starting their lines on the 5th degree of the chord/scale.
If that's what you mean by "play from G" then it'd be a little different of an idea.
This thread is more about melodically taking advantage of whatever triad is in the upper-most structure of any given chord and tonicizing those 3 notes within the melodic structure.
The CMaj7 chord (C-E-G-B) has an Eminor triad at the top. So with this approach, I would treat the E note as the melodic root. And the G note would function as 'Me', the flat 3rd. You could still "play from the G" here...but with the understand the it's functioning as 'Me'....not as 'So'. Melodically speaking, the B note (which is of course the Maj7th of the chord) would function as 'So' within the melodic structure.
This stuff seems to sound VERY intellectual and too over-thought when typed out. But it'd worth giving it a shot and just listening. What I'm talking about with all this talk of 'function' and 'melodic structure' is just words I'm using to describe something funny I noticed when I slowed everything down and started paying attention and listening to each note and chord I was working with.It all started in the ear....the words were just follow-up to try and understand what I was hearing and to find ways to organize and explain it.
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I know I don't understand you, but this is internet, so ...
It is the latter - play from the 5th, as in key, or tonality.
Piled extensions you can always see as being from the key/ tonality 5th apart.
Or if we go harmonizing scale, taking care to # that 4/11, you end in ...
I know you know that, just to clarify my thinking...
CEGB - CMaj7 - key of C major, but also G major
EGBD - G6/ Em7 ...
GBDF# - GMaj7 ...
BDF#A - Bm7/ D6 ...
DF#AC - D7 ...
F#ACE - F#m7b5/ Am6 ...
... all from G major
Dminor is the same as FMaj
Eminor is GMaj and GMaj is in G
Sub for FMaj7 is Am7, if it is Am7, why not dorian, if A dorian, it's as good as G major ...
Bm7b5 which is G9.
To confirm this, I've just spent 10 minutes noodling in Gmajor over FMaj7 vamp.Last edited by Vladan; 06-03-2015 at 05:50 PM.
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Oh oh, ok...I think I get where you're coming from. Not G the note or JUST G the triad...but the actual key of G...which would include the G triad, and the E minor triad.
That's definitely a cool way to open up some sounds, for sure. But still not exactly the same as this. Very related, maybe even pointing towards the same idea, but perhaps coming at it from a different starting point?
Though I'm not thinking of only using extensions from the key a 5th apart. That's leaving out too many other great tonalities.
CMaj7#5 (E Maj triad)
CMaj7#11#9 (B Maj triad)
CMaj7#9#5 (Ab min triad)
All of the 7th chord arpeggios you listed are great. And I'm not saying not to explore them. It just seems a little different way to approach things.
As for using the G major scale to play over an FMaj7 vamp...if it sounds good to you then that's cool. I'd love to hear it if you recorded it. I personally don't like the sound of a b9 against a Maj7 chord. The #9 sounds great in my ear, but I don't like the b9 so much. So I wouldn't ever choose the key of GMaj over an FMaj7 chord because of that note. The key of CMaj? Sure. But not GMaj.
Either way...the bigger question is, and the question I'm after in my own practice is, "What are your resolution notes??"
If you're resolving everything to the notes of the FMaj7 chord (well, minus the F natural note since the scale you're using has an F# in it...so let's ignore that note and assume you're resolving to A, C, and E - Aminor triad) then you're really creating a straight up FMaj7 tonality. Though you're not really playing the F note, and you're adding a b9/b2. You're creating the lydian sound by using the B natural note. But the chord itself, the harmony, is Fmaj7 (omit root, add b2).
If you tonicize the GMaj triad notes, then the tonality you're creating is FMaj13#11,9 (omitting the root and adding the b2 still). You could be using the exact same scale...but if you utilize these notes within the upper structure of the chord AND you tonicize them in your melody, it will create a whole different vibe...without changing the key or the scale.
There's a video somewhere on this thread of me sitting at a piano and showing how tense a 'C' note sounds while be played against a CMaj9#11 chord. It's note a stable note. It's tense and wants to resolve down to the B below it. Regardless of which scale or key we want to play in. If you haven't watched it yet, it might be helpful to check it out. These tonalities can be mixed and matched if we want...but it's important to realize that I'm not just talking about theoretical ideas on this thread. I'm talking about listening to the way that the notes behave when played against different chords. You could use the G major scale against the CMaj9#11 chord...but to me, it's important to know and hear that the G note itself has a desire to resolve down to the F#. Whether we always phrase it that way or not is up to us. But hearing it's tension and knowing that it's the Bmin triad notes that will create resolution is important to me...in order for me to be able to play with melodic integrity.
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