Arpeggios or Licks?

[pamosmusic]

These things should be synonyms, but I’m not sure they are - if you look past the technical definition to the flavour and baggage of a word.

(I actually think that’s incredibly important - might seem like pedantry but I think exact choice of terms is essential for the clearest communication.)

Arpeggio comes from arpa, the Italian word for harp. That suggests a certain way of playing. Up and down on shorter note values. We associate arpeggios with sweeping movements up and down.

Chord tones on the other hand suggests something more structural. Something that could be in longer note values. Something that could be elaborated or ornamented. Something which may be played out of sequence, or simply up or down.

Both are useful, but that second thing is more flexible for developing one’s changes playing technique.

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If someone talks about chord tones over a tune, I think more about building guide tone lines.

If someone talks about arpeggios, I think more about playing arpeggios in time and linking them. Quarter notes or eighth notes or something.

Both valuable, but yeah … I’d take the first if I had to choose.

[brent.h]

These things should be synonyms, but I’m not sure they are - if you look past the technical definition to the flavour and baggage of a word.

(I actually think that’s incredibly important - might seem like pedantry but I think exact choice of terms is essential for the clearest communication.)

Arpeggio comes from arpa, the Italian word for harp. That suggests a certain way of playing. Up and down on shorter note values. We associate arpeggios with sweeping movements up and down.

Chord tones on the other hand suggests something more structural. Something that could be in longer note values. Something that could be elaborated or ornamented. Something which may be played out of sequence, or simply up or down.

Both are useful, but that second thing is more flexible for developing one’s changes playing technique.

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Today I learnt something new. That's a good distinction, actually.

[joe2758]

0% of your practice time should be dedicated to watching YouTube tutorial videos.

I’ll do a video about it soon.

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You have unlocked the ultimate clickbait title "DON'T WATCH THIS VIDEO!"

[brent.h]

You're missing out on a lot of sound colours, with that simple approach.

I know, and I can accept that it is an over-simplified view of guitar and harmony. But like Joe and Pete said, those colours cover quite a lot of ground. Think Pareto Principle (80-20 rule).

Here's another analogy

Maj6, Min6, Dom7 are like the bench press, squat, and deadlift of harmony - big compound movements that bring the biggest gains.

I'm not going to worry about playing sounds like Cmaj7#5 cos that's like doing calf raises - nice to have/play, but not super necessary in the larger scheme of things

Lol

[pamosmusic]

I know, and I can accept that it is an over-simplified view of guitar and harmony. But like Joe and Pete said, those colours cover quite a lot of ground. Think Pareto Principle (80-20 rule).

Here's another analogy

Maj6, Min6, Dom7 are like the bench press, squat, and deadlift of harmony - big compound movements that bring the biggest gains.

I'm not going to worry about playing sounds like Cmaj7#5 cos that's like doing calf raises - nice to have/play, but not super necessary in the larger scheme of things

Lol

Or you could play E7 over C … bada bing

[brent.h]

Oh snap

[pamosmusic]

Oh snap

Or Bm6, dig?

It's all there. You generally don't need as much as you think you need.

[joe2758]

Or I like to simply think "c dorian with a raised 3rd 5th and 7th"

[joe2758]

jk

[Mick-7]

I know, and I can accept that it is an over-simplified view of guitar and harmony. But like Joe and Pete said, those colours cover quite a lot of ground. Think Pareto Principle (80-20 rule).

Here's another analogy

Maj6, Min6, Dom7 are like the bench press, squat, and deadlift of harmony - big compound movements that bring the biggest gains.

I'm not going to worry about playing sounds like Cmaj7#5 cos that's like doing calf raises - nice to have/play, but not super necessary in the larger scheme of things

Lol

What will you play over min^7 and altered dominant chords like say a dom.7#5?

[pamosmusic]

What will you play over min^7 and altered dominant chords like say a dom.7#5?

Over a mM7 chord you play minor.

Over a 7#5 you play minor up a half step from the root.

[Mick-7]

Over a mM7 chord you play minor.

Over a 7#5 you play minor up a half step from the root.

The natural minor scale does not contain the notes you'll need for those chords (not all of them anyway). Brent said he does not use harmonic or melodic minor scales, which is why I asked him the question.

[pamosmusic]

The natural minor scale does not contain the notes you'll need for those chords (not all of them anyway). Brent said he does not use harmonic or melodic minor scales, which is why I asked him the question.

Did he?

I use this 3 colours primarily in fretboard mapping: maj6, min6, dom7. That's it. Fingering wise, it's sort of the Chuck Wayne school so my picking is consistent throughout the arpeggios, and I don't have to worry too much about my right hand.

I don't bother with min7 because thats maj6. I don't bother with min7b5 because that's min6. Barry's teachings.

I use the maj7 sound also, but i don't map with that because the left hand fingering for maj7 arpeggios is stupid af. Same with minmaj7.

So m6 and m6 up a half step would be it.

[Mick-7]

Did he? (i.e., say he doesn't use harmonic/melodic minor scales)

It was in another thread: 6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

Thought it was odd that he called them "hard to learn/play" since they each have only one note that's different from the major scale (i.e., the b3rd & b6th).

P.S. - Actually, I see he answered my question in the post I referenced, he doesn't think in terms of scales, but in chord tones, which I do myself.

[brent.h]

min triad or min6 over minmaj7

dom7 over 7#5

I don't care too much about extensions, so if that's what the rhythm section wants to play, go ahead. I don't need to play the same thing that they do.

End of the day the most impt thing is time and swing. Like are they good? Everything else is a matter of preference/taste.

Edit, to clarify my position:

I see/analyse songs in key centres or use major scale. I use Chuck Wayne shapes for maj6, min6, dom7 arpeggios. When i see an A7 in All Of Me, I'm not thinking 'natural minor' or 'phrygian dominant'. I'm thinking, 'Ok this part of the song I can still play C major, but I'll just scoot that C to a C# temporarily.' (I learnt this from Lester Young, and I don't think in chord-scales because they make no sense to me.) Or I simply play an A7 arpeggio. Quite simple to me.

[AllanAllen]

I don't care too much about extensions, so if that's what the rhythm section wants to play, go ahead. I don't need to play the same thing that they do.

It takes a while to learn this.

[starjasmine]

Thought it was odd that he called them "hard to learn/play" since they each have only one note that's different from the major scale (i.e., the b3rd & b6th).

"Hard to play/execute" and "Hard to understand" are different things.

Personally, I find most harmonic minor fingerings to be pretty awkward. That interval between the m6 and ma7 presents special challenges in most contexts. I have no problems playing or using HM, but I remember it being challenging to learn.

Oddly, MM is pretty easy to play, despite there being only one note different from HM.

YMMV.

[rpjazzguitar]

I never think about harmonic minor when I'm playing.

If the harmony is Dm7b5 G7b13 Cm, if I'm thinking when starting a new line, it might go like this.

Dm7b5 is D F Ab C so I'll begin with those. If I have to expand, it's all white keys except Ab and Bb. Since the chord has a C, I won't lean on a B. But if the chord was G#m7b5 I'd probably take too long to think about the individual notes and, instead, go with the melmin a b3 up. In that case it might be better if I thought in fingerboard patterns, but I don't, at least not that many.

G7b13. It's a G7, except there's that augmented fifth sound that you get from raising the fifth, which means Eb instead of D. It would be more accurate theoretically to think about lowering the E rather than raising the D, but that's not the way I hear it. I don't want a D in the first octave and an Eb higher up. Maybe I should, by some theory, but I don't.

Cm. It's a Cm. I'll pick the 6s and 7s I want by ear. Every combination of 6 and 7 has it's own name but I don't have a good reason to use them.

If I could start it all over, I'd probably do all ear training and some of Reg's approach. But, I learned this stuff more haphazardly from different teachers and books over many decades. All the old stuff is in there, not unlearned.

[henryrobinett]

Wow thanks, Henry!

Sure. I edited it. Autocorrect typos. Sorry.


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[henryrobinett]

That is the standard nomenclature: major, minor (subdominant) and dominant. But you said 4 chord types, what's the fourth?

Major, minor, augmented and diminished. Three chord families: Major, minor Dominant.


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[henryrobinett]

Some of you guys. Lol. It seems so complicated. For the music I play I have to know my diminished scales, melodic and harmonic minors, various flavors of pentatonics. But as with the arpeggios I have to know them so well I don’t even know what they’re called. I don’t have to. I just see them laid out on the fretboard and grab what my ear tells me to grab. You can’t THINK except planning ahead. DMaj7#5. I play that ALL THE TIME but half the time I couldn’t tell you what it is. Ok - Bmm. But I don’t think of it like that. If I did I’d be playing B melodic minor. lol. But I’m not. I’m playing D Maj7#5 or D Lydian +5.


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[smantei]

I presumed that's what the OP meant by practicing arpeggios? Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense to contrast them with licks.

Yes, practicing!

[Christian Miller]

You have unlocked the ultimate clickbait title "DON'T WATCH THIS VIDEO!"

I have to try it.

[Christian Miller]

Some of you guys. Lol. It seems so complicated. For the music I play I have to know my diminished scales, melodic and harmonic minors, various flavors of pentatonics. But as with the arpeggios I have to know them so well I don’t even know what they’re called. I don’t have to. I just see them laid out on the fretboard and grab what my ear tells me to grab. You can’t THINK except planning ahead. DMaj7#5. I play that ALL THE TIME but half the time I couldn’t tell you what it is. Ok - Bmm. But I don’t think of it like that. If I did I’d be playing B melodic minor. lol. But I’m not. I’m playing D Maj7#5 or D Lydian +5.


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If one is used to doing things one way for a long time and invested a lot of time into it, other approaches seem more complex and counterintuitive to you. It might not mean that they are. This is certainly a blind spot for me - I keep forgetting how much time I've thrown at music, and that things that seem obvious to me are not necessarily obvious to those who are coming at it fresh.

So, I come at it more from the other angle. So I practiced the B minor on the Dmaj7#5. I am, however, at the point where that's completely intuitive for me, because I practiced it a lot.

I would agree that your way is theoretically simpler - the chord and the scale are almost the same thing. But, OTOH, you have to learn a lot of different scales, one for each chord quality, and the patterns and lines and so on are all different from chord to chord - at least until you get well practiced at constructing these things on the fly. (There's other practice implications as well.)

OTOH you can have fewer scales to learn - but you have to master and internalise a lot of rules of application (like Barry Harris or Allan Holdsworth, for example.) So that's a more "theoretical" approach, but it reduces the amount of material you have to learn. A given melodic line can be applied on pretty much any chord quality with this knowledge. So there's a huge medium term pay off there.

(My hunch is that the second way is more traditional as it seems to relate to the practice of chord substitution - but I don't really know.)

Of course there's a synthesis which involves both...

Either way, we all have to have done some learning haha. By the time we can do it without thinking, the difference may be largely academic.

I do think a new student has to commit to going down a path for a few years - and that commitment is probably more important than the specific path. That's why getting a good teacher who understands your musical goals is often so helpful. They are like a guide through the wilderness. Otherwise you may end up trudging around in circles without even realising.

[brent.h]

I'm not trying to stop the discussion on note choices here; just side-tracking for 2 seconds:

I can't explain it, but it's discussions about the minutiae in 'what to play' that just keep bringing me back to the Louis Armstrong approach to soloing.

Satch didn't know much scales or chord-scales or correct notes as we do, yet him shredding triads or playing around triads resulted in unforgettable, legendary solos. I wonder if we are missing the point of connecting with audiences when we think/focus a lot on harmony and very specific harmonic colours? The opening tonic line in Satch's solo on Basin Street Blues is simply going up and down just a triad, but by golly did it command my attention from the get go. The authority, the tone, the time.... The triad sounded like the most complex thing I've ever heard in jazz. Sounded better than the densest bebop line.

Again, I'm not advocating some kind of anti-progressivist, anti-intellectual stance on playing the music. If you feel like you need to learn more harmonic colours, feel free to do so. But I just wonder when is that point players start thinking, "Ok, enough's enough. Whatever I have with, Imma make good solid music now for the people." Personally, I've come to that point. I know what I want for myself. I know what's good enough for me.

Ok - thanks for hearing me out! (Please get back to discussing what to play over what chord.)