Arpeggios or Licks?

[djg]

It seems people naturally learn music this way. The street knowledge of jazz has long categorised things like cycles, turn backs, Montgomery Ward bridges and so on. And these names might be localised to the community of players. One we have in the UK is the Kipper for a Night and Day style #IV turnaround. I have no idea if this name is widespread.

in germany and holland it is called the kuester schluss or kuster slot. the kuester (sexton/verger) would often play the organ in church.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah. I don’t think you have to learn a lot of new scales. Just look at the ones you know from different angles. B melodic minor. But it has so many different applications. For Bb altered dominant. For E7+11. For DMaj7+5. Same scale. Different viewpoints. I think of them as one scale from different rooms.


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That’s what I do I think.I mean you kind of have to think of both things at once to some extent. Oh there’s a Bm7b5, I’ll play Dm6 stuff. Until you don’t think about it any more.


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[Christian Miller]

in germany and holland it is called the kuester schluss or kuster slot. the kuester (sexton/verger) would often play the organ in church.

Interesting. I have no idea of the etymology of Kipper.


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[GuyBoden]

don’t think, KNOW.

"Don't Think, KNOW"

Yes, a great comment, "Don't Think, KNOW" comes with the years and years of practice we've all hopefully put in.

[Christian Miller]

"Don't Think, KNOW"

Yes, a great comment, "Don't Think, KNOW" comes with the years and years of practice we've all hopefully put in.

I mean, yeah…. no one is born KNOWING how to solo through Moments Notice.

(Apart from Chris Potter maybe.)


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[henryrobinett]

I mean, yeah…. no one is born KNOWING how to solo through Moments Notice.

(Apart from Chris Potter maybe.)


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Exactly. There are no short cuts. The only way to KNOW comes after years and years of playing and practice. That’s why I feel these forums are so frustrating. Because there’s too much thinking going on. It only comes from playing. Practicing ahead of time working through however you want to think about these things and playing. Eventually, the playing will happen and the thinking will stop. For me it’s always been a see-saw. Probably like all of us I discovered very early that playing was almost an out of body experience. But then when I had to stop and think about learning songs or what scale I’m gonna use or how to play on top of this type of chord or something really drastic like Moments Notice or Giant Steps, I had to think about it and practice chord change after chord change to get through the entire thing. And working through all the scale patterns and all of the arpeggios that fit like a glove to the scale patterns so I could see the neck. Looking isn’t thinking. So I just look at the neck and I see BMaj to D7 to G to Bb7 to Eb. Do it till I could know it. See it. Not think about it. IMPROVISE through it. And if someone asked me what I was doing, I’d have to stop and THEN think. “Well, let me see that was, . . . the first chord is B right? And then it goes to a 2-5 in G and then a 2-5 in E flat. Simple, right. It’s just offkilter to the bar. But that’s the only time I start thinking. If I had to explain or if I’m reading it.

But think think-think-think isn’t going to do it. Method after method book. There ARE systems. Some are more complex systems or that sound more complex than they are. A lot of guys like the Coltrane guys use patterns. And many of those patterns, almost doesn’t matter what they play on top of given chords. Particularly with some modal things. They’re just patterns. Sounds great. But theoretically not so difficult.

[henryrobinett]

Addendum: I’ve never been a lick player. Never ever ever. Ok. Exceptions. Early on I learned a couple of blues licks. The standard bend thing. Haven’t we all? And there was a four note Dexter Gordon lick that I learned. But I always thought Jazz was improvisational. So I did it the super hard way. I misapplied something that Mingus told me. “Play your own shit even if it stinks.” Well I just always played my own shit, even if it stunk. Didn’t matter. It was about connecting to my imagination. It was only ever about connecting to my own imagination. That was my grand experiment. I don’t know anyone else who decided to take that approach. You become much better “player “if you do it like everyone else. Learn solos. Learn licks. Put it together and eventually you’ll have your own voice. That just seemed backwards to me. “Hey, I like the way that guy dresses. I’m gonna buy his shoes and find out where he buys his clothes. I will learn how to walk like him and laugh like him, tell his jokes and eventually, I’ll find out how to be me.” It just sounded ass backwards to me. So I am who I am. My playing is me. My sound. You might not like it, but it’s my sound. I don’t want to sound like anyone else. I don’t want to NOT sound like anyone else I just don’t want to sound like anyone else. Because I’m not someone else.


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[joe2758]

Interesting. I have no idea of the etymology of Kipper.


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Around here it's referred to as "three little pigs" and I think that may also have German roots.

[pamosmusic]

Addendum: I’ve never been a lick player. Never ever ever. Ok. Exceptions. Early on I learned a couple of blue licks. The standard bend thing. Haven’t we all? And there was a four note Dexter Gordon lick that I learned. But I always thought Jazz was improvisational. So I did it the super hard way. I misapplied something that Mingus told me. “Play your own shit even if it stinks.” Well I just always play my own shit, even if it stunk. Didn’t matter. It was about connecting to my imagination. It was only ever about connecting to my own imagination. That was my grand experiment. I don’t know anyone else who decided to take that approach. You become much better “player “if you do it like everyone else. Learn solos. Learn licks. Put it together and eventually you’ll have your own voice. That just seemed backwards to me. “Hey, I like the way that Guy dresses. I’m gonna buy his shoes and find out where he buys his clothes. I will learn how to walk like him and laugh like him, tell his jokes and eventually, I’ll find out how to be me.” It just sounded ass backwards to me. So I am who I am. My playing is me. My sound. You might not like it, but it’s my sound. I don’t want to sound like anyone else. I don’t want to not sound like anyone else I just don’t want to sound like anyone else. Because I’m not someone else.


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I've known a couple people like this -- frankly not many -- and they've all had one thing in common, so I'm curious if you do as well.

They all sing A LOT. Like you mention you like Bird's second chorus on All the Things from Massey Hall and they just hum you the solo and are like "you mean that part?"

So I think there's definitely a lot of osmosis and connection with the ear there, even with people who can sort of skip the part where they put it on their instrument explicitly. Not sure if that's true of you.

[joe2758]

In terms of osmosis, I think Harry grew up in quite a good environment for that based on his bio!

[henryrobinett]

I've known a couple people like this -- frankly not many -- and they've all had one thing in common, so I'm curious if you do as well.

They all sing A LOT. Like you mention you like Bird's second chorus on All the Things from Massey Hall and they just hum you the solo and are like "you mean that part?"

So I think there's definitely a lot of osmosis and connection with the ear there, even with people who can sort of skip the part where they put it on their instrument explicitly. Not sure if that's true of you.

No. I’m a terrible singer. But I do hear in my head. And I can hum it in a sense. So maybe I do sing in my head I don’t know. But I see shapes and colors of sound. What are they called, synesthesia? A slight form of that I guess.


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[joe2758]

That's so cool, you do mention "seeing" a lot

[henryrobinett]

That's so cool, you do mention "seeing" a lot

Yeah. I SEE the patterns on the fretboard. I see patterns and shapes in my mind that correspond to the sounds. People who have perfect pitch- not me- apparently do this, especially with color. Notes have certain colors. I’m not sure if they’re the same colors person to person. But I’m sure it has to do with the wave lengths of sound matching the wavelengths of color. But in my case they’re lines. Very simplistic. Lines that go up and down and various lengths. Depths. They tend to be of the same color. Kind of a red on a dark background. And harmonies; I just see them stacked and in motion. On an invisible timeline.


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[Christian Miller]

I've known a couple people like this -- frankly not many -- and they've all had one thing in common, so I'm curious if you do as well.

They all sing A LOT. Like you mention you like Bird's second chorus on All the Things from Massey Hall and they just hum you the solo and are like "you mean that part?"

So I think there's definitely a lot of osmosis and connection with the ear there, even with people who can sort of skip the part where they put it on their instrument explicitly. Not sure if that's true of you.

If you can sing it, then putting it on the instrument is just a matter of practice. The actual singing can be flat, whatever, but the sense of it is there.

I always say this, but getting the thing in my ears is most of the process of playing things by ear.

Even if you aren't fluent at playing by ear, you certainly can't play the thing by ear until you can actually hear it without a wrong guitar note throwing you off.

I'm trusting it more and more ...

I believe Warne Marsh warmed up by playing Lester Young solos in different keys.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah. I SEE the patterns on the fretboard. I see patterns and shapes in my mind that correspond to the sounds. People who have perfect pitch- not me- apparently do this, especially with color. Notes have certain colors. I’m not sure if they’re the same colors person to person. But I’m sure it has to do with the wave lengths of sound matching the wavelengths of color. But in my case they’re lines. Very simplistic. Lines that go up and down and various lengths. Depths. They tend to be of the same color. Kind of a red on a dark background. And harmonies; I just see them stacked and in motion. On an invisible timeline.


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Oh man … I don’t recall saying they sang WELL

[Woodstove]

This post has interesting timing for me. Just last week I acquired a book I heard about on this forum, Jim Fergusson's "All Blues Soloing for Jazz Guitar - scales, licks, and choruses". His approach is precisely to wed arpeggio and scale lessons with licks that derive from the material as he goes along. He discusses theory of course but also jazz history pointing out the players the licks were taken from and where to hear more. The licks are on a CD allowing me to record them into my daw and loop, separate measure, etc with ease. I find this strategy is the best I have yet encountered, at least for my brain, after checking out many other resources. Highly recommended!

[AllanAllen]

You guys are ALL trying to hard. I just play jazz. It’s just that simple. Pick up the guitar and play jazz.

Sometimes after reading Christian’s posts and a Paganini Caprice comes out. Gotta watch out what you read or learn. It immediately pollutes your playing.

[joe2758]

You guys are ALL trying to hard. I just play jazz. It’s just that simple. Pick up the guitar and play jazz.

Sometimes after reading Christian’s posts and a Paganini Caprice comes out. Gotta watch out what you read or learn. It immediately pollutes your playing.

yea, idiots..get loose for once

[henryrobinett]

You guys are ALL trying to hard. I just play jazz. It’s just that simple. Pick up the guitar and play jazz.

Sometimes after reading Christian’s posts and a Paganini Caprice comes out. Gotta watch out what you read or learn. It immediately pollutes your playing.

Well no. Lol. Not at all. Learn scales, arpeggios, SONGS and have fun!


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[AllanAllen]

Well no. Lol. Not at all. Learn scales, arpeggios, SONGS and have fun!


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I was just joking around. You must not be a chronically online forum member. Joe got the joke.

[henryrobinett]

I was just joking around. You must not be a chronically online forum member. Joe got the joke.

I wasn’t sure. I just wanted to verify. And I actually have not been on this forum for some years.


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[Christian Miller]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again

JGO, the place where people who massively overthink things accuse other people of massively overthinking things


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[joe2758]

The sad thing is how easily it could have not been a joke (from someone else). so i don't blame Henry for not being sure lol

[joe2758]

I was waiting for someone to say it actually haha

[emanresu]

Now. I am drunk atm. So don't judge me.

But putting licks vs arps is a blasphemy.
You could do that. But what does it actually do? you got licks. you got arps.
licks give you a bit of musical ideas. half-ideas.
arps give you none, but give you approved notes.

yup. thats it.
this "vs" thread. claustrophoby.
pick small room one or small room two.