Arpeggios or Licks?

[smantei]

Curious how people think about this tradeoff.

Suppose you're an intermediate player getting into jazz and have only enough practice time for one of these approaches for the next month or two:

1. Learning arpeggios thoroughly and getting them under your fingers in multiple positions and keys.
2. Building a vocabulary of 30-50 strong jazz licks and understanding where they fit harmonically (ii-V-I's, turnarounds, etc.).

The argument for arpeggios is that you're learning the underlying structure and can theoretically generate your own lines.

The argument for licks is that you learn actual jazz lines that can you could apply to songs and become gig-capable sooner.

Thoughts? - I know many of you might want to say "both", but try to pick one over the other just for argument sake

[joe2758]

Licks

[Christian Miller]

The answer is yes


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[pamosmusic]

Licks, but I'll be the first one to be obnoxious on the thread and dispute the premise of the question.

[joe2758]

well that got annoying quickly

[AllanAllen]

You have time, spend 5-10 minutes on each, every day, even Christmas day. The answer isn't either/or, it's all of the above.

The arpeggios will help you play the licks, but they won't really help you generate your own authentic sounding jazz lines. But if you can't play a basic major 7 arpeggio you're going to struggle with Charlie Parker lines. You need technical facility and language (ie, arpeggios and licks)

[joe2758]

Thoughts? - I know many of you might want to say "both", but try to pick one over the other just for argument sake

Your resistance is futile

[Mick-7]

Arpeggiated licks - play them up and down in intervals of a 3rd, a 5th, a 7th, etc.

[joe2758]

Arpeggiated licks.

that's actually kind of the thing, arps are n the licks..but not necessarily vice versa

[Mick-7]

that's actually kind of the thing, arps are n the licks..but not necessarily vice versa

With shorter licks, it's possible to combine the two - doesn't have to be an either/or thing.

[joe2758]

With shorter licks, it's possible to combine the two - doesn't have to be an either/or thing.

yeah but the op prefaced that obvious answer which renders the conversation basically useless

[Tal_175]

You'll probably achieve neither in the next month or two regardless of which one you choose. So there is also that.

[Strat-itis]

I do find it presumptuous when people immediately get uppity with an OP, but here we've no choice:

It's a false dichotomy, you need both.

You need to understand the mechanics and be able to manipulate them to make your own music with the arps and scales (and don't forget the intervals and chromatics). But you also need to know how the music is actually supposed to sound. One doesn't function very well without the other.

[joe2758]

you should have made a poll and disabled comments

[Phil59]

Just cut to the chase and dispense with the needless rhetoric. Either/or is obviously a false premise. You need to do both plus study some tunes.

[smantei]

It's all good. I wasn't sure if people felt strongly of one vs the other, but its obvious most everyone agrees you need both - can't really have one without the other.

Appreciate the responses.

[henryrobinett]

Don’t ask me. Everyone will disagree and they’d probably be right. But I never ever learned a single lick. But I spent my time with arpeggios and scales. But always improvised with them more than just exercises. And tunes. Applied to improvising on tunes.


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[ragman1]

Arpeggios because they're an unavoidable part of soloing.

Like Henry, I don't do ready-made licks as a matter of course but I do repeat certain ways of playing over certain chords, or combinations of chords, because it's my style. So I can't say I never do anything twice :-)

[equenda]

Hi!
I thought of calling the Licks with the name "Mini-Melodies," and by combining these short "Mini-Melodies" I get longer melodic phrases that I call..."Macro-Melodies."

This is the fourth video (dedicated to Macro-Melodies) I've posted on my YouTube channel:

I think it's inevitable for most musicians to study scales ----> arpeggios -------> melodic ideas (licks...). However, I've met people who can improvise at a high level after studying just a few scales for a short time, and there are others who, after studying scales and arpeggios for years, can't play a good improvisation. The question of musical talent shouldn't be underestimated...


Ettore

[Mick-7]

You can make faster progress by practicing scales, arpeggios, and chord patterns in your head away from the guitar, especially if your practice time on the instrument is limited. Knowing how they map out on the fingerboard is half the battle.

[Christian Miller]

I would say that I think it’s better to think chord tones than arpeggios. Arpeggios suggests you go up and down all the time. Chord tones and embellishing chord tones gives more space for developing lines. I like to practice chord tones in half notes. Jump around and connect chords to other chords by half and whole steps.

Don’t just play on chords - connect them up.

I would also say that you don’t get to get out of listening and working music out by ear just because you choose not to go down the licks road. It’s one of the main things.

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[GuyBoden]

Listen and learn the songs.

[joe2758]

I think binary questions are the only ones that lead to interesting convos...like as a "consider the following," not a right answer. The answer is always "both." Of course the question of flawed...op even said that. it's kind of like when I asked "do you get more out of figuring out tunes, or the actual practicing of the phrases?" of course it's both. AI could say "learn songs, vocabulary, technique, musicianship, theory, play with other people.." in fact I bet that is what it would say lol

And Phil59 says cut to the chase, but like aren't we all just trying to kill time here?

[joe2758]

I did the typical "mapping" with arps and scales, but I do wonder if the licks themselves would be enough of a map for people who don't do that first. After all, you can still analyze the licks and know what arps you are playing, and if you learn enough of them they should cover most the fretboard. It seems to me the worst that could happen is one of these players need to think twice about how to leave all the cool stuff out of the arp lick in order to play a plain one

[joe2758]

If I took CAGED as an example map...my map of licks is basically CAE and everything else is in between and there is also over lap; in that way my only real consideration is the best possible fingering and not tying it to a position