Arpeggios or Licks?

[joe2758]

I did the typical "mapping" with arps and scales, but I do wonder if the licks themselves would be enough of a map for people who don't do that first. After all, you can still analyze the licks and know what arps you are playing, and if you learn enough of them they should cover most the fretboard. It seems to me the worst that could happen is one of these players need to think twice about how to leave all the cool stuff out of the arp lick in order to play a plain one

[joe2758]

If I took CAGED as an example map...my map of licks is basically CAE and everything else is in between and there is also over lap; in that way my only real consideration is the best possible fingering and not tying it to a position

[brent.h]

I use this 3 colours primarily in fretboard mapping: maj6, min6, dom7. That's it. Fingering wise, it's sort of the Chuck Wayne school so my picking is consistent throughout the arpeggios, and I don't have to worry too much about my right hand.

I don't bother with min7 because thats maj6. I don't bother with min7b5 because that's min6. Barry's teachings.

I use the maj7 sound also, but i don't map with that because the left hand fingering for maj7 arpeggios is stupid af. Same with minmaj7.

[joe2758]

Can't argue with that! Although to be a little pedantic here, BH treated harmony and soloing differently. You are referencing how he approached harmony, but the single note stuff was scales, triads, and what he called "chords" which were 7th chord arpeggios

[henryrobinett]

I would say that I think it’s better to think chord tones than arpeggios. Arpeggios suggests you go up and down all the time. Chord tones and embellishing chord tones gives more space for developing lines. I like to practice chord tones in half notes. Jump around and connect chords to other chords by half and whole steps.

Don’t just play on chords - connect them up.

I would also say that you don’t get to get out of listening and working music out by ear just because you choose not to go down the licks road. It’s one of the main things.

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Yes, absolutely! But it was those years of practicing arpeggios that showed me where all the chord tones were. So I can see ALL the chord tones from pretty much any chord to any chord because I practiced those arpeggios. I almost never play an arpeggio in a solo.


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[AllanAllen]

I almost never play an arpeggio in a solo.

Reminds me of an entertaining Jens Larsen video. He plays a clip of Joe Pass playing and then saying the exact same thing "I never use an arpeggio in a solo." Then Jens analyzes the solo and highlights a bunch of arpeggios in it.

A triplet arpeggio into a line is a jazz idiom (To Christian: did I use that term right?), the head of 'Well You Needn't' for example, or bar 2 of 'Moose The Mooche'

[ragman1]

Licks, of course, can also contain arpeggios. They used to do this formula where you go up the arpeggio and then down the scale. I never did it but I seem to remember that.

[mr. beaumont]

Reminds me of an entertaining Jens Larsen video. He plays a clip of Joe Pass playing and then saying the exact same thing "I never use an arpeggio in a solo." Then Jens analyzes the solo and highlights a bunch of arpeggios in it.'

I mean, you could play EFGB over a C major chord and I could say "oooh, E Phrygian!"

As Henry said, arpeggios (and scales) are not prescriptions for what to play, but rather mapping devices. Play either in order they don't sound much like jazz at all.

I don't PLAY arpeggios when I solo, but I definitely USE them.

[joe2758]

Henry, what sort of stuff did you play before you dove into arpeggios? Was it right from the beginning, or were you say decent enough to jam already?

[smantei]

Of course I'm a beginner (to jazz anyway). I wouldn't be asking otherwise. I just wanted to get a feel for how seasoned players approach this - seems like a fair enough question.

Got my answer, so thanks!

[GuyBoden]

I use this 3 colours primarily in fretboard mapping: maj6, min6, dom7. That's it. Fingering wise, it's sort of the Chuck Wayne school so my picking is consistent throughout the arpeggios, and I don't have to worry too much about my right hand.

I don't bother with min7 because thats maj6. I don't bother with min7b5 because that's min6. Barry's teachings.

I use the maj7 sound also, but i don't map with that because the left hand fingering for maj7 arpeggios is stupid af. Same with minmaj7.

You're missing out on a lot of sound colours, with that simple approach.

[JazzKatua]

Licks, of course, can also contain arpeggios. They used to do this formula where you go up the arpeggio and then down the scale. I never did it but I seem to remember that.

Idd; interesting licks do contain arpeggios as well; arps don't have to be played in total and they're played ascending as descending depending on the line you want to play.

[pauln]

Licks are lines comprised of pieces of arpeggios and scales, which may express a harmony, or a changing harmony, or a reharminization. You may learn licks, where they work directly from recordings., arpeggios directly from the structure of chords, and how scales relate to which progression changes.

The single element approach is not the best; drilling one thing limits progress to becoming smooth and fast, but licks, arpeggios, and scales do not individually inform you as much as all three together. That means learning licks does not necessarily inform you of the structure and relationship of either the chord structures or scales that may be related or associated with them. Likewise, running arps and scales will not help much in being able to spontaneously produce licks that sound authentic, appropriate, and compelling. You will miss discovering important connections that aren't present in single element drills.

You want your practice time to be a connections rich environment by maximizing the implicit occurrences of musical connections (practice that includes different musical elements). This improves the chances of musical connections becoming explicit to you - when you go, "Oh, what's this, wow!" You should always practice until this happens - practicing multiple variety until you learn something new, ending each practice with the happy feeling of progress.

[joe2758]

You're missing out on a lot of sound colours, with that simple approach.

I'm not sure if he is actually. That kind of playing is based on subs so if he had G7 he could play

G7, Bb7, Db7, E7, Abmin6, Bmin 6, Dmin6, Fmin6

And with that approach he has the option to lower the 5th or raise the tonic (or root if we are talking chords) by a half step of any of the dominants.

And then, you can basically multiply that by two by deriving the chords based off Eb dim

Obviously these won't all sound perfect at any given time, you still need taste, but someone taking that path doesn't really miss out on much...i e everything is available in that system of organization

[pamosmusic]

I'm not sure if he is actually. That kind of playing is based on subs so if he had G7 he could play

G7, Bb7, Db7, E7, Abmin6, Bmin 6, Dmin6, Fmin6

And with that approach he has the option to lower the 5th or raise the tonic (or root if we are talking chords) by a half step of any of the dominants.

And then, you can basically multiply that by two by deriving the chords based off E dim

Obviously these won't all sound perfect at any given time, you still need taste, but someone taking that path doesn't really miss out on much...i e everything is available in that system of organization

Yeah you’d be hard pressed to find a lick that *didnt* fit into one of those frameworks.

Honestly not a lot of straight dominant arpeggios out there. Major and minor covers it with some diminished 7 in there for flavor.

[joe2758]

I like this guy (and I don't play GJ at all). Not because I learned concepts from him, but because he triggered a pretty huge attitude shift. Crazy awesome resource for licks as well...i have probably memorized over 20 pages of bebop vocabulary from his transcriptions.

[AllanAllen]

I like this guy (and I don't play GJ at all). Not because I learned concepts from him, but because he triggered a pretty huge attitude shift. Crazy awesome resource for licks as well...i have probably memorized over 20 pages of bebop vocabulary from his transcriptions.

I like his videos for technical exercises. The two I watched he said which Django solos they came from.

[Christian Miller]

I think binary questions are the only ones that lead to interesting convos...like as a "consider the following," not a right answer. The answer is always "both." Of course the question of flawed...op even said that. it's kind of like when I asked "do you get more out of figuring out tunes, or the actual practicing of the phrases?" of course it's both. AI could say "learn songs, vocabulary, technique, musicianship, theory, play with other people.." in fact I bet that is what it would say lol

And Phil59 says cut to the chase, but like aren't we all just trying to kill time here?

If you wanted to knock it down to essentials, say 1/3rd scales, arpeggios etc and 2/3rds learning music, by ear as much as possible.

Though to play jazz I think you need a concept of how to apply material to playing tunes. Once you’ve figured that out though, it doesn’t need to be practiced per se.

The ear and muscle memory do most of it

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[Christian Miller]

0% of your practice time should be dedicated to watching YouTube tutorial videos.

I’ll do a video about it soon.

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[henryrobinett]

Henry, what sort of stuff did you play before you dove into arpeggios? Was it right from the beginning, or were you say decent enough to jam already?

I don’t know, I started with arpeggios pretty early. I remember in high school I was practicing in the back room on a Blues using arpeggios. And guys are asking what are you doing? It just seemed pretty obvious to me that chord tones were where it was at. But mainly I was playing by tone scales. I can’t remember what they’re called. Key Center? So I’d find whatever the parent scale was and played that. And use my ear for the rest. So in other words if it was E minor to A Minor to D Minor to G7 to C I just think a C- scale. Overtime I just started pinpointing down what those were. Like highlighting the thirds and the seventh of each chord. Basic stuff. And like almost anything other than that was fair game. But I was pretty early in this. And I don’t know where I got it from. I did have a teacher who gave me some arpeggios high school but I never learned them. I took some lessons with Howard Roberts in HS, so it probably came from him. I kind of put it all together a few years later in terms of a systematic approach to scale patterns and arpeggios. What this approach did was it just freed up my mind and my ear to the rules so I could open the door to improvisation. It’s simplified things. Overall home key patterns. Filling in the details later.

Oh yeah. Very early I used the three chord approach. The types of chords. I had a specific name to distinguish them from the 4 chord types. Three chord families. Major, minor and dominant. For me all the chords fell into these groups. A dominant was always a V. Major was I OR IV. Minor II, iii of vi unless it was as minor. Min7b5 was harmonic minor. Basic stuff. Helps me get around without getting too bogged into thinking. Thinking is death for improv.


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[pcjazz]

0% of your practice time should be dedicated to watching YouTube tutorial videos.

I’ll do a video about it soon.

Should we watch it?

[joe2758]

Wow thanks, Henry!

[Mick-7]

I would say that I think it’s better to think chord tones than arpeggios.

I presumed that's what the OP meant by practicing arpeggios? Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense to contrast them with licks.

[Christian Miller]

I presumed that's what the OP meant by practicing arpeggios? Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense to contrast them with licks.

These things should be synonyms, but I’m not sure they are - if you look past the technical definition to the flavour and baggage of a word.

(I actually think that’s incredibly important - might seem like pedantry but I think exact choice of terms is essential for the clearest communication.)

Arpeggio comes from arpa, the Italian word for harp. That suggests a certain way of playing. Up and down on shorter note values. We associate arpeggios with sweeping movements up and down.

Chord tones on the other hand suggests something more structural. Something that could be in longer note values. Something that could be elaborated or ornamented. Something which may be played out of sequence, or simply up or down.

Both are useful, but that second thing is more flexible for developing one’s changes playing technique.

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[rpjazzguitar]

I'm not sure of the exact meaning of practicing arpeggios.

Are we talking about specific fingerings, like you identify a root note on a low string and then play the notes of a chord up and down in order? In this case you're memorizing patterns.

Or, are we talking about knowing the notes in the chords you use and knowing where they are on the fingerboard? In this case you're memorizing chord tones - not in a particular order.

Knowing where the chord tones of the chord-of-the-moment are is a good foundation for improvising. Not the only way to do it, but it works.

Knowing 30-50 good sounding licks and how to use them also sounds like a good idea. Seems like it would instill time feel and the melodic character of jazz more than just knowing arps.

If I had to pick one? That situation won't come up. If I had to practice one? That won't come up either. I think it's good to know chord tones and good to know some licks.