6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

[JazzKatua]

Playing with the thumb is still "picking."

What i mean is get your house in technical order before you have a chance to ingrain bad habits. Bad habits are tough to break, and take time. If I decided I wanted to break mine now, I'd need to devote much if not all of my limited practice time to do it. I've learned to cope with my limitations, but there are things im just never going to be able to do.

Interesting point you made: Practice time!
Other interesting point: which guitarist nowadays would 'pick' with only the thumb? Would this now be considered a 'bad practice/bad habit'?
EVERY musician has limitations, but making GREAT music is not about being the greatest technical music. In Jazz it's about connection/communication and in JazzJams I miss that aspect, since a LOT of musicians are READING the leadsheet scores constantly and DON'T listen to what's happening.

[pamosmusic]

Interesting you mentioned Wes, since Wes had no 'pick'ing. It was downward with his thumb and it worked for him. So not sure why you 'pick' Wes as an example for 'picking'...

Your old guitar teacher's quote: "amateurs think about the left hand; pros think about the right."; I tend to think about BOTH hands. Left serves Right and Right serves Left in my case.

I didn’t use Wes’s picking as an example. I used a solo of his that I’ve spent a lot of time working on as an example of how detailed you can (and probably should) be when you’re working on picking.

[onezeho]

So ...one zeho ?

Do your understand how the fretboard works? A 12 fret repeating pattern.

Scales, arp. positions and rhythmic skills etc... are standard beginning skills and tools that help you develop your musical skills of playing the guitar.

They also help you understand, organize and be able to repeat what you hear and play on the instrument... without having to memorize everything.

You mentioned you have scales etc... in ? one position.

Can you without thinking play Gmaj scale in all 7 positions? (maj scale and modes)

Same with arps.

Just trying to see where your at....

Yes I know what the fretboard is about (I hope). I can play any scale from any string, but it's not always instant. The pattern from root to root bottom to top I can play. But I can't, for example, land on the sixth of G major at a random spot and immediately see the other notes of the key that takes me a moment to think. I can't jump freely between scale degrees on the fly, like grabbing the sixth, then the third, then the seventh. I can go outside one position, but there I have to pay more attention to where I'm going next. As for arpeggios - yes, I can play them, but I haven't put enough time into it and can get confused. I have good exercises for this and plan to get back to them alongside working on jazz standards

Edit
While practicing arpeggios, I try to understand which scale degrees I'm playing, and I often say them out loud. I know the notes on the fretboard -perfectly on the 5th and 6th strings, but on the other strings I don't always orient myself quickly

[jazzyfan]

Playing with the thumb is still "picking."

What i mean is get your house in technical order before you have a chance to ingrain bad habits. Bad habits are tough to break, and take time. If I decided I wanted to break mine now, I'd need to devote much if not all of my limited practice time to do it. I've learned to cope with my limitations, but there are things im just never going to be able to do.

This comment is so right, but is possibly of less use at this site.

People here are amateurs and don't have the time to fix their technique. They're stuck with what they have.

Re the idea of ingraining bad habits, that is so true.
We are essentially at the mercy of bad teachers/our own lack of knowledge/ignorance when we set out on playing - which is why the majority of self-taught payers have poor technique.
It's one thing to be a hack as a hobbyist - that's expected and perfectly normal.
The shocking reality is that MANY pros are hardly any better.
They themselves are victims of their poor technique that they ingrained a long time ago. They don't tend to fix that though - they're still stuck with stupid positions, inability to mute, stupid Gypsy positions, Benson etc etc etc. Endless incompetence.
What's even worse is that pros with that faulty technique will then pass that "virus" onto their students by coaching the student to use that same shitty technique.
It's so awful and the "virus" replicates through the students.

[ragman1]

Yes I know what the fretboard is about (I hope). I can play any scale from any string, but it's not always instant. The pattern from root to root bottom to top I can play. But I can't, for example, land on the sixth of G major at a random spot and immediately see the other notes of the key that takes me a moment to think. I can't jump freely between scale degrees on the fly, like grabbing the sixth, then the third, then the seventh. I can go outside one position, but there I have to pay more attention to where I'm going next. As for arpeggios - yes, I can play them, but I haven't put enough time into it and can get confused. I have good exercises for this and plan to get back to them alongside working on jazz standards

You're missing the point, and you're still missing it after umpteen pages of 'advice'. And before that umpteen months of whatever. You can perform all kinds of gymnastics with scales and profess encyclopaedic knowledge but you still can't pick up a guitar and play Autumn bloody Leaves.

Why don't you ask why? And find the answer. And put it right. Simple, innit.

And if you say 'Of course I can play Autumn Leaves' I'll ask you to prove it. And you better be able to.

[joe2758]

You're missing the point, and you're still missing it after umpteen pages of 'advice'. And before that umpteen months of whatever. You can perform all kinds of gymnastics with scales and profess encyclopaedic knowledge but you still can't pick up a guitar and play Autumn bloody Leaves.

Why don't you ask why? And find the answer. And put it right. Simple, innit.

And if you say 'Of course I can play Autumn Leaves' I'll ask you to prove it. And you better be able to.

Relax. It seems op is seeking advice from Reg (who is possibly the most respected player on this forum), and Reg specifically asked him that question as a starting point to offer him tailored advice. He was just answering that question.

[jazzloverfat]

You're missing the point, and you're still missing it after umpteen pages of 'advice'. And before that umpteen months of whatever. You can perform all kinds of gymnastics with scales and profess encyclopaedic knowledge but you still can't pick up a guitar and play Autumn bloody Leaves.

Why don't you ask why? And find the answer. And put it right. Simple, innit.

And if you say 'Of course I can play Autumn Leaves' I'll ask you to prove it. And you better be able to.

Rather than being a pedantic prick about it, why not try to actually be helpful and explain your point in a constructive manner?!

This is what I don't get about this place... there's a lot of good advice and info here, but so many ppl feeling the need to over-complicate things or show off what know-it-alls they are while completely missing the context...

[henryrobinett]

Look, the only thing I can say is jazz is complicated. You just have to take one step at a time. Every pathway is different. Undaunted courage. Don’t try and do everything all at once. Enjoy the challenges. My way was unconventional but for me it worked. But that was because I was patient and impatient. Tunes. It’s all about the songs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[onezeho]

You're missing the point, and you're still missing it after umpteen pages of 'advice'. And before that umpteen months of whatever. You can perform all kinds of gymnastics with scales and profess encyclopaedic knowledge but you still can't pick up a guitar and play Autumn bloody Leaves.

Why don't you ask why? And find the answer. And put it right. Simple, innit.

And if you say 'Of course I can play Autumn Leaves' I'll ask you to prove it. And you better be able to.

Dude, don't be so aggressive I've taken a lot of advice to heart and started working on melodies, learning standards. I moved away from theory and into practice. In the message above I was just answering Reg's questions. And yeah, I can play Autumn Leaves. I learned it over the last two days, sooo

[ragman1]

Good, that sounds more effective. So are you playing it as single notes against a backing (perhaps with occasional chord punches) or as a chord melody, i.e. solo?

[onezeho]

Good, that sounds more effective. So are you playing it as single notes against a backing (perhaps with occasional chord punches) or as a chord melody, i.e. solo?

I only play the melody. I've got two options: either I turn on a metronome clicking on 2 and 4 and play along with that, or I put on a

I've tried throwing in some chord stabs too, but that's not really working out for me yet. I want to lock in a solid rhythmic feel on this tune first, and only then start adding complexity to it

[ragman1]

I want to lock in a solid rhythmic feel on this tune first, and only then start adding complexity to it

Absolutely, great. Seeing you drown yourself in 'knowledge' was frustrating. The point about tunes is it gives you a firm target, something really tangible to work on and see satisfying results.

Then, as you say, relevant elements of knowledge can be added on when the foundations feel secure. Terrific, I'm glad you're here now.

[onezeho]

Absolutely, great. Seeing you drown yourself in 'knowledge' was frustrating. The point about tunes is it gives you a firm target, something really tangible to work on and see satisfying results.

Then, as you say, relevant elements of knowledge can be added on when the foundations feel secure. Terrific, I'm glad you're here now.

Thanks! I'm glad I found this place (:

[mr. beaumont]

I only play the melody. I've got two options: either I turn on a metronome clicking on 2 and 4 and play along with that, or I put on a

I've tried throwing in some chord stabs too, but that's not really working out for me yet. I want to lock in a solid rhythmic feel on this tune first, and only then start adding complexity to it

Totally a "my preference" tip, but you might find helpful too...

Practice with tracks that don't have guitar as the backing. Encroaches on your "sonic territory," makes things muddled even if you're playing well.

[onezeho]

And if you say 'Of course I can play Autumn Leaves' I'll ask you to prove it. And you better be able to.

decided to record an mp3

autumn leaves, 70bpm, G.mp3

[joe2758]

here's one of my favorites to get you started

[onezeho]

here's one of my favorites to get you started

I like this version too

[ragman1]

Perfect

What Jeff said about backing tracks is true too. If there's a piano tinkling away or a guitar with a lot of treble sounds it can get in the way of your notes. They quite often do them with just bass and drums and it says 'no piano' on them. Or maybe you can find one where the general sound is pretty bland and doesn't intrude on what you're playing.

So, you played it right off the sheet beautifully. What next? Try playing it with some personal expression. Delay a note here and there, put some rhythm into it, that sort of thing. But not too much, just a bit so it doesn't sound too 'by rote'. Does that make sense?

I'm quite sure you can do that, by the way. I can tell by the way you're playing it already. Gentle and practiced :-)

[joe2758]

decided to record an mp3

autumn leaves, 70bpm, G.mp3

nice tone!

[Reg]

Yes I know what the fretboard is about (I hope). I can play any scale from any string, but it's not always instant. The pattern from root to root bottom to top I can play. But I can't, for example, land on the sixth of G major at a random spot and immediately see the other notes of the key that takes me a moment to think. I can't jump freely between scale degrees on the fly, like grabbing the sixth, then the third, then the seventh. I can go outside one position, but there I have to pay more attention to where I'm going next. As for arpeggios - yes, I can play them, but I haven't put enough time into it and can get confused. I have good exercises for this and plan to get back to them alongside working on jazz standards

Edit
While practicing arpeggios, I try to understand which scale degrees I'm playing, and I often say them out loud. I know the notes on the fretboard -perfectly on the 5th and 6th strings, but on the other strings I don't always orient myself quickly

Hey Onezeho

So the fretboard needs to become... somewhat like interchangeable grids.You think, see of hear a note or chord (Reference), and the fretboard becomes that reference.

Ex. You see, hear or feel...a reference... say Gmaj7. The fretboard becomes that Gmaj7. Anywhere on the fretboard. Generally at first... it's like all the notes of that "Reference" ....Gmaj7 light up or become visual.

Then say G-7.... same thing. Different notes.

This is just the basic starting point. Next you need to be able to do the same thing with... creating "Relationships" with that Gma7 the "Reference".

The Gmaj7 "Reference" usually begins with simple Major (Ionian) . Now that Gma7 has a more musically organized
collection of notes.

This same process needs to be gone through with the basic Scales and their Modes.

Major scale and it's Modes
Melodic Minor and it's Modes
Harmonic Minor and its Modes
Harmonic Major and it's Modes

Symmetric Scales... Diminished and Whole Tone

Pentatonic(s) .. modes
Blues... modes
Bebop ... modes

Now you have a basic understanding of the fretboard that has musical organization.

Your able to create chords from each note... that has organization.


The next step is to begin to understand and hear the "RELATIONSHIPS" between the Chords and the Scales the Chords are derived from.

Then comes the "Development" of those "Relationships"

It begins to get a little more complicated... The organization of "Relationships" and the organization of the "Development" of those "Relationship".

Generally the term "Function" ...somewhat like the force or power behind what makes the music move or do what it wants to do... the guidelines for what might sound good or bad etc...

Simple example... If I call or hear that Gmaj7 as a "Tonic Reference" I open the musical door to using "Relative" Relationships. I can play Emin. voicings or play E- scale, or Pentatonic licks.

There are "Functional"... or Musical types of Relationships that have standard musical organization that open the doors for improv. Playing in a jazz style.

yea talking about it becomes BS... but actually playing with this approach isn't BS. It not only allows you to play... but allows you to hear and understand what other musicians are playing... where the music can go etc..

That's generally why you need to get your technical chops together... You can also do this by ear and just playing... but it takes years, lots of years, and many never get there. Which is fine, it's still fun... no good or bad.

Sorry for long post
Reg

[onezeho]

Hey Onezeho

So the fretboard needs to become... somewhat like interchangeable grids.You think, see of hear a note or chord (Reference), and the fretboard becomes that reference.

Ex. You see, hear or feel...a reference... say Gmaj7. The fretboard becomes that Gmaj7. Anywhere on the fretboard. Generally at first... it's like all the notes of that "Reference" ....Gmaj7 light up or become visual.

Then say G-7.... same thing. Different notes.

This is just the basic starting point. Next you need to be able to do the same thing with... creating "Relationships" with that Gma7 the "Reference".

The Gmaj7 "Reference" usually begins with simple Major (Ionian) . Now that Gma7 has a more musically organized
collection of notes.

This same process needs to be gone through with the basic Scales and their Modes.

Major scale and it's Modes
Melodic Minor and it's Modes
Harmonic Minor and its Modes
Harmonic Major and it's Modes

Symmetric Scales... Diminished and Whole Tone

Pentatonic(s) .. modes
Blues... modes
Bebop ... modes

Now you have a basic understanding of the fretboard that has musical organization.

Your able to create chords from each note... that has organization.


The next step is to begin to understand and hear the "RELATIONSHIPS" between the Chords and the Scales the Chords are derived from.

Then comes the "Development" of those "Relationships"

It begins to get a little more complicated... The organization of "Relationships" and the organization of the "Development" of those "Relationship".

Generally the term "Function" ...somewhat like the force or power behind what makes the music move or do what it wants to do... the guidelines for what might sound good or bad etc...

Simple example... If I call or hear that Gmaj7 as a "Tonic Reference" I open the musical door to using "Relative" Relationships. I can play Emin. voicings or play E- scale, or Pentatonic licks.

There are "Functional"... or Musical types of Relationships that have standard musical organization that open the doors for improv. Playing in a jazz style.

yea talking about it becomes BS... but actually playing with this approach isn't BS. It not only allows you to play... but allows you to hear and understand what other musicians are playing... where the music can go etc..

That's generally why you need to get your technical chops together... You can also do this by ear and just playing... but it takes years, lots of years, and many never get there. Which is fine, it's still fun... no good or bad.

Sorry for long post
Reg

Thanks for the breakdown. Now I just need to figure out how to balance the technical side with working through standards...

[Reg]

Thanks for the breakdown. Now I just need to figure out how to balance the technical side with working through standards...

Just make a daily schedule for a week and leave room to adjust.

The technical part is mechanical and will adjust by it's self.

The playing of standards will change with your level of skills... LOL

The point is to be able to play standards etc...with out practice. You can't memorize all versions of all standards etc...

[mr. beaumont]

Bummed, onezho's mp3's will not open for me.

[joe2758]

Bummed, onezho's mp3's will not open for me.

He plays the melody slow straight and solid with good tone

[pamosmusic]

For melodies, singers are the tops. Here's a good one:

Notice that there are no added notes in the first pass through the A section, but it's totally her own and swings hard.