George Benson teacher attacking other teacher calling him idiot, a-hole and loser

[robocoptick]

equally effective with an archtop.

[pamosmusic]

some holdsworth inspired lines, with tony levin and morgan ågren.


<a href="https://youtu.be/JcLVxNES3Pc?feature=shared" target="_blank">

why?

[AllanAllen]

equally effective with an archtop.

Very fast and clean playing. Impressive technique. How do you stay relaxed?

[AllanAllen]

why?

Why not? We’re deep enough in the thread for total derailment.

[robocoptick]

why?

holdsworth came into the discussion.

as did the 4th finger.

[robocoptick]

Very fast and clean playing. Impressive technique. How do you stay relaxed?

alexander technique plus robert fripp mocking me when i had any facial tension.

[Christian Miller]

This itself is a great topic- Using the pinky less than expected is something that a lot of these rest-stroke-picking shredders like Peter Farrell, George Benson, Wes Montgomery all have in common, and for good reason- this is actually often MORE efficient for what they are trying to play, not less. Same with Django Reinhardt and most modern Gypsy Jazz guitarists too.

Let me explain-
1- These players often do strict rest-stroke alternate picking, especially for anything fast (with every down-stroke being a rest-stroke, and every up-stroke being a free-stroke).
2- They also hear and reach for a lot of extended range lines with large jumps such as multi-octave arpeggios, etc. (as opposed to more closed position-type lines like Pat Martino or Kenny Burrell, etc).

So, to best execute those kinds of ideas with that sort of right hand technique, two of the most common adaptations players make are:
1- Playing even numbers of notes per string so that they can always change strings after a an up-stroke free-stroke.
2- Using the three big fingers on their own more across a span of just 4 frets, doing more sliding and shifting for chromatic notes...and using the pinky more so to reach across a span of 5 frets and beyond. This often leaves the pinky more available for chromatics and extensions. Also, most of these guys play strings no lighter than 12-52 with a wound G, and the 3 big fingers fatigue less easily than the pinky when shredding fast on beefy low strings.

Bonus: When thinking this way, the pinky can also be used to help execute incredible horizontal lines that jump across the length of the fretboard like George Benson plays on "Take 5" from the album Bad Benson.
I started playing around with this concept in a video last year-

I did a vid innit

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[Maxxx]

Christian Miller has made a nice video about this approach.

There is a thread hereabouts on the subject. Worth checking out, even if you come from somewhere else in your playing (or are going somewhere else with it.)

I just watched the video and posted a comment there which I'll basically just copy here..


Thoughts on Jazz guitar hands and the 3 finger myth..

---

He talks in his video by playing a few lines with three fingers and then four fingers and saying the three fingers sound inately more musical and horn like..

This thinking is seriously and entirely flawed. That's like saying: 'look how well I can hop on one leg', when you've allowed your right leg to completely atrophy. The only reason his three finger phrase may sound more musical than his four finger sample is because his 4th finger is weak and untrained. If your thinking is crippled then your playing will be crippled.

But what if you can slip and slide and slur with all four fingers accurately? Just take a look at how often that little pinky is used in jazz chords.. why on earth would we want to remove it when playing melodic lines!!. Why would a cheetah remove one of its legs?

It's not that the little finger is no good or inefficient, it's just the average person doesn't train it properly. Look at some of the absolutely blistering virtuoso violin players and classical and jazz pianists that use all fingers of both hands.. there is no weakness or deficiency there whatsoever.

So it's not a case of finding something more efficient or optimal, this seems more like a case of attemting to justify working with a handicap that one has neglected to fix.

Personally I think people begin and approach jazz guitar with the totally wrong approach. They use the hand that they already have to try and play the licks and lines that they want to hear.. when really the entire hand itself should be 'repaired' and prepared first. I spent years simply training my left hand on the fingerboard long before I ever tried to play a single lick or a tune. Fortunately I discovered classical violin books before I discovered jazz guitar books. Then I struck gold one day when maybe 45 years ago I was in a very old arch-top guitar shop.. I found a dusty old guitar method book from the 50's or 60's in a raggedy tattered cardboard box in a corner, and almost entirely half of it was purely devoted to developing the left and right hand which included all 4 fingers both left and right along with endless picking exercises that had to be perfected even before you touched 'Mary had a Little lamb'.

The information and guidance on pure technique for the fretting hand and the picking hand for that matter in 99% of jazz guitar theories, methods, tutorials and courses and everywhere including all the videos from so called 'teachers' on boob-tube etc, is absolutely appalling if not entirely non-existent.

There was also a really interesting quote in that old dusty book that I have never forgotten, where George Benson said in an interview that he thought his left hand and right hand picking technique was appalling and not efficient at all but he had done it for so long it was too late for him to change. But if he could do it all again, he absolutely would, and he would re-lay his entire technical foundation. There you go, straight from the horse's mouth.

These great horn like jazz guitarists that he spoke of are not using the most efficient and 'musical' technique in choosing mostly 3 fingers.. rather they have all learned to adapt and function to extraordinary levels with that same handicap intact. I thank God to this day that I discovered that book so early along with all the books on classical violin technique before I had a chance to permanently ingrain any bad habits and weaknesses in my hands. And now 40 years later when I have included five string fretless bass and piano into my choice of instruments, the ideal groundwork from the meticulous training in both my hands has already been laid.
---

[Maxxx]

Peter Farrell is a phenomenal GB copyist, he may even be the world's best. I bet he's good enough to fool most of us in a blind listening test as to whether or not we're listening to the real GB or just PF. So there's something to be said for that, in the same way that there are expert copyists (forgerers?) of great painters.

You got to be kidding me.. Peter Farrell is an embarrassment..

Compare Farells 15 years of lessons with Benson, with this guys no lessons from.. no one.

Nails Benson almost better then Benson does.

Clearly Benson endorsed the wrong person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8syOz10pjZM

[AllanAllen]

That was a smoking Summertime. Now you do one!

[Maxxx]

That was a smoking Summertime. Now you do one!

Lesson 1. Music is not about ego.

I'm sure there are Minecraft tutorials on boob-tube if you like to engage in that kind of thing.

[AllanAllen]

I just want people to post clips here.

[noisyneil]

I can only speak from my own experience, but having done the 8hrs a day thing as a teenager and become lightning fast at a load of 3nps modern rock stuff (because my teacher was into that), I always felt more comfortable and expressive when playing with a more casual "hand stance". I'm a Hendrix nut, so thumb-over is a must for much of that.

I stumbled upon Farrell's methodology about 4yrs back and I'm a completely different musician as a result. I have a far more rounded understanding of harmony and I get what Benson means when he says he reduces everything to the most basic information. I can now play over any progression and never play anything but major scale material, due to the substitution and visualisation concepts, which are very practical on guitar. I also developed the "mostly 3 fingers" approach along the way, and I find that it takes you into places you might not have thought of. Limitations can be a great inspiration. It's similar, in that regard to the rule (that's made to be broken, of course) about always changing strings after even numbers of strokes during descending passages. It forces you into playing things that sound intentional and unexpected. As a result, you seldom play more than a few contiguous notes of a scale in succession, and that lends itself to a very lyrical sound. At least that's how I feel about it.

At the risk of seeming evangelical, I think that anyone who thinks he's rubbish can't have spent any real time absorbing what he lays out. And I wouldn't blame them if they hadn't - he regularly pulls down his video content and charges a small fortune for his books. He's a terrible businessman but a monster music teacher. If you don't like his playing, that's another thing altogether.

Again, just one guy's thoughts.
??

[Maxxx]

Ok here's one for you.

[jameslovestal]

I just want people to post clips here.

Can you explain why?

[AllanAllen]

Can you explain why?

I Like watching forum members play. It also would be cool to have someone who talks a big talk play really well.

But I’m not trying to be combative or bully anyone.

[nyc chaz]

You got to be kidding me.. Peter Farrell is an embarrassment..

Compare Farells 15 years of lessons with Benson, with this guys no lessons from.. no one.

Nails Benson almost better then Benson does.

Clearly Benson endorsed the wrong person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8syOz10pjZM

Someone asked a question on a thread years ago saying that Farrell's Benson books were too expensive.I had the audacity to respond and say there were other less expensive books and video's online that would help learn Benson's style.Farrell came on here and went wacko on me for daring to suggest such a thing.We went back and forth until he finally ran off.The guy in the clip you posted does one great Benson imitation.

[Christian Miller]

I just watched the video and posted a comment there which I'll basically just copy here..


Thoughts on Jazz guitar hands and the 3 finger myth..

---

He talks in his video by playing a few lines with three fingers and then four fingers and saying the three fingers sound inately more musical and horn like..

This thinking is seriously and entirely flawed. That's like saying: 'look how well I can hop on one leg', when you've allowed your right leg to completely atrophy. The only reason his three finger phrase may sound more musical than his four finger sample is because his 4th finger is weak and untrained. If your thinking is crippled then your playing will be crippled.

But what if you can slip and slide and slur with all four fingers accurately? Just take a look at how often that little pinky is used in jazz chords.. why on earth would we want to remove it when playing melodic lines!!. Why would a cheetah remove one of its legs?

It's not that the little finger is no good or inefficient, it's just the average person doesn't train it properly. Look at some of the absolutely blistering virtuoso violin players and classical and jazz pianists that use all fingers of both hands.. there is no weakness or deficiency there whatsoever.

So it's not a case of finding something more efficient or optimal, this seems more like a case of attemting to justify working with a handicap that one has neglected to fix.

Personally I think people begin and approach jazz guitar with the totally wrong approach. They use the hand that they already have to try and play the licks and lines that they want to hear.. when really the entire hand itself should be 'repaired' and prepared first. I spent years simply training my left hand on the fingerboard long before I ever tried to play a single lick or a tune. Fortunately I discovered classical violin books before I discovered jazz guitar books. Then I struck gold one day when maybe 45 years ago I was in a very old arch-top guitar shop.. I found a dusty old guitar method book from the 50's or 60's in a raggedy tattered cardboard box in a corner, and almost entirely half of it was purely devoted to developing the left and right hand which included all 4 fingers both left and right along with endless picking exercises that had to be perfected even before you touched 'Mary had a Little lamb'.

The information and guidance on pure technique for the fretting hand and the picking hand for that matter in 99% of jazz guitar theories, methods, tutorials and courses and everywhere including all the videos from so called 'teachers' on boob-tube etc, is absolutely appalling if not entirely non-existent.

There was also a really interesting quote in that old dusty book that I have never forgotten, where George Benson said in an interview that he thought his left hand and right hand picking technique was appalling and not efficient at all but he had done it for so long it was too late for him to change. But if he could do it all again, he absolutely would, and he would re-lay his entire technical foundation. There you go, straight from the horse's mouth.

These great horn like jazz guitarists that he spoke of are not using the most efficient and 'musical' technique in choosing mostly 3 fingers.. rather they have all learned to adapt and function to extraordinary levels with that same handicap intact. I thank God to this day that I discovered that book so early along with all the books on classical violin technique before I had a chance to permanently ingrain any bad habits and weaknesses in my hands. And now 40 years later when I have included five string fretless bass and piano into my choice of instruments, the ideal groundwork from the meticulous training in both my hands has already been laid.
---

My fourth finger is a bit crap it’s true. I don’t like looking at it. It offends me. Which is one reason for me specifically to entertain switching (hasn’t happened yet.)

Obviously there’s many greats who use all four with thumb behind the neck. But this patronising dismissal of those who use a different approach is rather grating and I wonder if it isn’t down to a basic nagging insecurity we all have. What I’ve taken the wrong fork in the road? Did I learn wrong? After years down the road that can become more and more nagging at the back of our minds.

Well I can relate to that.

But none of his changes the fact that many of my favourite guitarists simply favour three fingers. As we aren’t playing polyphonic music there’s no real reason to use four fingers most of the time. I understand violinists favour three fingers and a more pronated left hand for example.

Anyway I find it interesting many will aim to emulate Benson’s right hand but not his left hand. Why not both? Or neither (as in your case.) And how binary people become in their perception of left hand technique. It’s right or wrong. Well, life is more complex. Maybe it’s a lack of interest in the subject beyond one’s own playing and if you feel you have a left hand technique to your liking .

In terms of what Benson says of his own technique - he’s a humble guy. Many great players are surprisingly self deprecating of their playing - it’s part of the artist’s journey to be highly self critical. I’d say what he says is less important than how he plays and how well he has maintained the level of technique life long. That is good technique in practice because he plays better than either of us.

He is the master, and I expect (though happy to proven wrong) that you are not. I men that’s true of any of the players I reference in the video. In the arts we study the masters. We may not in the end choose to emulate them, but that is always the correct path.

For my part my video is an (undoubtedly flawed) attempt to study what so many masters do.

Those without preconceptions might learn something by studying others even if they don’t choose to follow that path themselves.


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[noisyneil]

I think this is a very good take. I also agree that Benson‘s left hand deserves more attention and I would go as far as saying it is the lynchpin of his picking technique.

I can play with his right hand style and it does have a particular attack and consistency that I like. However, I can play all the same lines at the same speed with a more conventional hand position, which has its own benefits (muting, versatility, digging in a bit more).

The key is that the faster lines he plays are structured in a way that never result in the pick ending up stuck between strings. There are exceptions to this, and if you watch videos of him playing bluesier stuff in the 60s, you’ll see that he alters his hand position to facilitate string crossing for phrases that aren't playable any other way.

[Christian Miller]

One thing I have to pick up on that I didn’t discuss in my video is that I don’t think everyone has big enough hands to make the pronated left hand/three fingers work. Kids for example.

It’s not a solution that suits everyone, which is one thing the classical technique has. But over time our technique may become more idiomatic to our physiology.


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[Christian Miller]

I think this is a very good take. I also agree that Benson‘s left hand deserves more attention and I would go as far as saying it is the lynchpin of his picking technique.

I can play with his right hand style and it does have a particular attack and consistency that I like. However, I can play all the same lines at the same speed with a more conventional hand position, which has its own benefits (muting, versatility, digging in a bit more).

The key is that the faster lines he plays are structured in a way that never result in the pick ending up stuck between strings. There are exceptions to this, and if you watch videos of him playing bluesier stuff in the 60s, you’ll see that he alters his hand position to facilitate string crossing for phrases that aren't playable any other way.

Yes it’s very similar to Manouche style rest stroke picking, which has all the same characteristics. The two hands have to work together. Whereas alternate picking aims to equalise all picking problems and is somewhat left hand agnostic. Which is great if you can alternate pick well (most of course can’t -or at least seem to spend most of their time moaning about it lol.)

After a decade or so of using rest stroke myself, I’m deep into the advantages, frustrations and trade offs.

The main thing that I find problematic is not limitations of what I can play, actually (fast playing is inherently modular and needs to be practiced that way) but more the evenness and exactness that I want. This is more about playing written music - including mine - rather than improvisation. Articulation is a bit of a bug bear.

But it can be worked on. You have to choose your poison ultimately. There’s no magic bullet as others have said.

Exactness seems to not be an issue for Benson. His rhythmic accuracy is terrifying.

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[noisyneil]

One thing I’ve never been able to figure out is why the attack of the "reversed" pick angle sounds so different. I mean it’s just the pick hitting the strings at an angle. If you replicate the angle in the opposite direction, the two are nothing alike, at least to my ear.

[Christian Miller]

One thing I’ve never been able to figure out is why the attack of the "reversed" pick angle sounds so different. I mean it’s just the pick hitting the strings at an angle. If you replicate the angle in the opposite direction, the two are nothing alike, at least to my ear.

I know what you mean. Beats me tbh… I think there’s a snap to the movement maybe? Goes in and out from the guitar itself body a bit more.


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[lawson-stone]

Can you explain why?

This being a musicians' forum, it makes sense that we'd want to hear and see forum members play. Posting clips is also a great antidote to people who "types a great solo" and talk big, but really haven't proven their approach in their playing.
But seriously, what possible objection could there be to wanting a teacher, or someone claiming to know a lot about teaching and learning, post a clip of their playing?

[Litterick]

This being a musicians' forum, it makes sense that we'd want to hear and see forum members play. Posting clips is also a great antidote to people who "types a great solo" and talk big, but really haven't proven their approach in their playing.
But seriously, what possible objection could there be to wanting a teacher, or someone claiming to know a lot about teaching and learning, post a clip of their playing?

It would be a great opportunity for bullying and humiliation.