George Benson teacher attacking other teacher calling him idiot, a-hole and loser

[lawson-stone]

It would be a great opportunity for bullying and humiliation.

Honestly, I've been on here a good while and have posted LOTS of clips, some of which were less that optimal to say the least. I've never found bullying and humiliation to be much of a problem. Sure you get the periodic rude and clueless comment, and some on here are in seriously arrested development, but my overall experience posting on this forum has been very positive.

Also, I simply will not take seriously any advice about playing coming from someone who will not put their playing out there to show they have more than just some theory books they've read. I think I speak for many in saying that.

[Litterick]

Honestly, I've been on here a good while and have posted LOTS of clips, some of which were less that optimal to say the least. I've never found bullying and humiliation to be much of a problem. Sure you get the periodic rude and clueless comment, and some on here are in seriously arrested development, but my overall experience posting on this forum has been very positive.

Also, I simply will not take seriously any advice about playing coming from someone who will not put their playing out there to show they have more than just some theory books they've read. I think I speak for many in saying that.

You have not experienced bullying or humiliation, so it is not an issue for you. But you wrote, 'Posting clips is also a great antidote to people who "types a great solo" and talk big, but really haven't proven their approach in their playing', which suggests you might make it an issue.

Contributors to this forum should be able to express themselves freely, without having to prove their chops to the senior members. This forum has a reputation for unpleasantness, which is not found on forums for other genres. Maybe it is a jazz thing. After all, this is a thread about one teacher verbally abusing another, which is not unusual among jazz musicians.

I have witnessed several new members who stayed for a week or less. I have spoken to a couple of them, and they told me the nastiness drove them away. People do not come here to be attacked by an expert, or by a member hiding behind a fake account, let alone for their thoughts and their playing to be compared and contrasted. We have precious few regular contributors as it is, without risking alienating any more newcomers.

You do not speak for many, and nor do I, because this forum does not have many for whom we could speak.

[AllanAllen]

People do not come here to be attacked by an expert

And I don’t come here for attitude by some schmuck who can’t figure out the red circle is record. If someone is going to claim to be better than everyone on the forum, they should be able to back that up.

[Christian Miller]

TBF I totally get why people don't want to post their playing on JGO though lol.

[James W]

You have not experienced bullying or humiliation, so it is not an issue for you. But you wrote, 'Posting clips is also a great antidote to people who "types a great solo" and talk big, but really haven't proven their approach in their playing', which suggests you might make it an issue.

Contributors to this forum should be able to express themselves freely, without having to prove their chops to the senior members. This forum has a reputation for unpleasantness, which is not found on forums for other genres. Maybe it is a jazz thing. After all, this is a thread about one teacher verbally abusing another, which is not unusual among jazz musicians.

I have witnessed several new members who stayed for a week or less. I have spoken to a couple of them, and they told me the nastiness drove them away. People do not come here to be attacked by an expert, or by a member hiding behind a fake account, let alone for their thoughts and their playing to be compared and contrasted. We have precious few regular contributors as it is, without risking alienating any more newcomers.

You do not speak for many, and nor do I, because this forum does not have many for whom we could speak.

I don't think it's posting clips of one's playing per se that causes bullying etc. it's unpleasant people. Thing is, no one should have to post a clip of their playing but it can be useful if they feel the need to heavily criticise someone else's playing, in putting that criticism in perspective. Unfortunately some people are so deluded and lacking self awareness that even after exposing their lack of skill they still persist with unwarranted criticisms and so on.

So I'm not sure I agree totally that forum members should be able to express themselves freely if that entails bullying comments - with or without posting clips of their playing.

[Litterick]

And I don’t come here for attitude by some schmuck who can’t figure out the red circle is record. If someone is going to claim to be better than everyone on the forum, they should be able to back that up.

Is this person in the room with us right now?

[Litterick]

I don't think it's posting clips of one's playing per se that causes bullying etc. it's unpleasant people. Thing is, no one should have to post a clip of their playing but it can be useful if they feel the need to heavily criticise someone else's playing, in putting that criticism in perspective. Unfortunately some people are so deluded and lacking self awareness that even after exposing their lack of skill they still persist with unwarranted criticisms and so on.

So I'm not sure I agree totally that forum members should be able to express themselves freely if that entails bullying comments - with or without posting clips of their playing.

Perhaps we need rules for responding to clips. 'Be the person your dog thinks you are', or something like that.

[lawson-stone]

You have not experienced bullying or humiliation, so it is not an issue for you. But you wrote, 'Posting clips is also a great antidote to people who "types a great solo" and talk big, but really haven't proven their approach in their playing', which suggests you might make it an issue.

Contributors to this forum should be able to express themselves freely, without having to prove their chops to the senior members. This forum has a reputation for unpleasantness, which is not found on forums for other genres. Maybe it is a jazz thing. After all, this is a thread about one teacher verbally abusing another, which is not unusual among jazz musicians.

I have witnessed several new members who stayed for a week or less. I have spoken to a couple of them, and they told me the nastiness drove them away. People do not come here to be attacked by an expert, or by a member hiding behind a fake account, let alone for their thoughts and their playing to be compared and contrasted. We have precious few regular contributors as it is, without risking alienating any more newcomers.

You do not speak for many, and nor do I, because this forum does not have many for whom we could speak.

Nobody has to prove their chops unless they repeatedly critique others' playing and offer advice and guidance. If they want their viewpoint respected, they have to be able to play.

I've been on other forums too, and the nastiness is everywhere. IN general I find this forum pretty congenial, but we do have an expectation that people who criticize and advise others will back up their claims with good playing. It's not about proving chops, it's about not wasting others' time. It's about showing, not just telling.

[lawson-stone]

TBF I totally get why people don't want to post their playing on JGO though lol.

Really? I consider myself in the lower third of players here ability-wise, and I've never once felt like I shouldn't or couldn't post a clip if I'm working on something or trying something out. To be sure, to put yourself out there anywhere requires being ready for a range of responses. I also consider myself an "a$$hole in recovery" and understand how someone, on impulse, can be unpleasant. I think lots of us have done that from time to time. But we can hope we're all becoming better people as well as better musicians.

[MarkRhodes]

Nobody has to prove their chops unless they repeatedly critique others' playing and offer advice and guidance. If they want their viewpoint respected, they have to be able to play.

I've been on other forums too, and the nastiness is everywhere. IN general I find this forum pretty congenial, but we do have an expectation that people who criticize and advise others will back up their claims with good playing. It's not about proving chops, it's about not wasting others' time. It's about showing, not just telling.

This is the camp I'm in.
No one need pass an audition to join this Forum.
No one has to post a clip of their own playing, ever.
We share impressions of players, experiences with playing, and sometimes info (-'yeah, I tried those strings; I found them bright and stiff') and sometimes advice. Many people join this Forum to learn about jazz---they may not be beginning players, just beginning jazz players---and they want advice about how best to do it. Not every pro player gives the same advice (-though most agree you need to know the neck, develop technique, and grasp common chord movements) and it makes sense that those seeking advice would want to know that those offering it know what they're talking about, and that means playing.
Then there is the element of how one talks about what they know how to do. Reg, for example, is an exceptional player, but when I first started reading his posts, I couldn't make heads or tails of them. I just didn't understand what he meant. But gradually, I came to understand it. (If I hadn't heard him play---and know that he's the real deal---I wouldn't have bothered to read his posts enough times to understand them.)

[Strat-itis]

Agree with Lawson and AA that if you talk a big game, you'd better post up, and if you don't it's pretty clear why you don't. Although no, it's not a requirement of joining the forum.

Disagree that it's a cordial atmosphere. All forums have conflict, but this forum is one of the more haterish. But there's still some cooperation and community.

To Christian's comment about understanding that it's threatening to post clips here. That's actually the main thing that's helped my playing. When I first joined in 2020, I thought like most intermediates I was cool because I had some talent and taste. Then I realized there are pro level players on here who can actually play and it drove me to hold myself accountable and step it up.

[mr. beaumont]

I have never seen any bullying of members who have posted clips.

I have seen plenty of it FROM members who haven't posted anything.

During covid we did over a year of playing a song a week, even ragman was mostly constructive.

[Strat-itis]

True. People don't post clips and then others go 'you suck bad!!'

It's more you say something theoretical and then people burn your house down with ad hominems.

[Mick-7]

During covid we did over a year of playing a song a week

Oh, I see, it took a pandemic to get people to post clips, let's root for another one then.

[AllanAllen]

Is this person in the room with us right now?

No, but he’s got another thread going about how time is simple.

[lawson-stone]

Agree with Lawson and AA that if you talk a big game, you'd better post up, and if you don't it's pretty clear why you don't. Although no, it's not a requirement of joining the forum.

Disagree that it's a cordial atmosphere. All forums have conflict, but this forum is one of the more haterish. But there's still some cooperation and community.

To Christian's comment about understanding that it's threatening to post clips here. That's actually the main thing that's helped my playing. When I first joined in 2020, I thought like most intermediates I was cool because I had some talent and taste. Then I realized there are pro level players on here who can actually play and it drove me to hold myself accountable and step it up.

I'm truly sorry you don't find a cordial atmosphere on this forum. While we do tend to challenge each other, and I don't always find it "comfortable," i do find it cordial. I have had my share of conflicts with some on here, and some of them I have to take responsibility for. But overall, I feel like for a middling player, I've been treated really well by others on this forum, including those with whom I've had serious disagreements.

[Litterick]

I have never seen any bullying of members who have posted clips.

I have seen plenty of it FROM members who haven't posted anything.

During covid we did over a year of playing a song a week, even ragman was mostly constructive.

You would see bullying if members were required to post clips to prove their abilities and somehow justify their comments. The atmosphere would be very different from the Covid carnival of songs.

I can see no correlation between the critic's musical abilities and the quality of his or her criticism. Some of the best professional critics have little or no ability to produce works in the genre they criticise. I am struggling to think of any music critic who has produced a credible piece of music, or any theatre critic who has written a producible play. But that is irrelevant: what matters is the quality of their criticism.

Any criticism of a member's playing should be met with argument. If someone says the playing is poor, without giving any reason for that opinion, other members should demand a justification. A clip of the critic's playing would not solve the issue.

[Litterick]

No, but he’s got another thread going about how time is simple.

Anyone's claim to be a better musician than everyone else is best ignored.

Any claim about time should challenged by argument, with examples. In The Drum Perspective, Peter Erskine recalls an argument with Eliane Elias:

"You Americans don't know how to swing samba; you all sound like TI-KA TI-KA TI-KA TI-KA." I smirked and said, "Well then, how should it sound?" She sang, "DO-goosh-ga, DO-goosh-ga, DO-goosh-ga, DO-goosh-ga."

[Strat-itis]

I'm truly sorry you don't find a cordial atmosphere on this forum. While we do tend to challenge each other, and I don't always find it "comfortable," i do find it cordial. I have had my share of conflicts with some on here, and some of them I have to take responsibility for. But overall, I feel like for a middling player, I've been treated really well by others on this forum, including those with whom I've had serious disagreements.

Thx, it's not prob. I'm more mournful about real life being hostile, not as much forums.

[Mick-7]

I can see no correlation between the critic's musical abilities and the quality of his or her criticism. Some of the best professional critics have little or no ability to produce works in the genre they criticise. I am struggling to think of any music critic who has produced a credible piece of music, or any theatre critic who has written a producible play. But that is irrelevant: what matters is the quality of their criticism.

This is not a music critics forum. Other then certain subforums like The Showcase, people do not post audio/video clips here to receive reviews of their performance, they post them because they'd like feedback or advice on how they may improve a particular aspect of their playing or about a playing technique, or simply to share ideas about a particular subject like, say, chord melody playing. Feedback from someone who is not proficient in the skill I am trying to develop is of no practical use to me, so I want concrete evidence that they know whereof they speak and are not just accomplished air guitarists.

[Litterick]

This is not a music critics forum. Other then certain subforums like The Showcase, people do not post audio/video clips here to receive reviews of their performance, they post them because they'd like feedback or advice on how they may improve a particular aspect of their playing or about a playing technique, or simply to share ideas about a particular subject like, say, chord melody playing. Feedback from someone who is not proficient in the skill I am trying to develop is of no practical use to me, so I want concrete evidence that they know whereof they speak and are not just accomplished air guitarists.

Clearly, people post clips for a variety of reasons. Posts in the Showcase invite comment, as you acknowledge. Other topics invite advice. Perhaps I have not been paying attention, but I have not seen anyone receive unwarranted criticism from mountebanks, wiseacres and blowhards.

[Mick-7]

Clearly, people post clips for a variety of reasons. Posts in the Showcase invite comment, as you acknowledge. Other topics invite advice. Perhaps I have not been paying attention, but I have not seen anyone receive unwarranted criticism from mountebanks, wiseacres and blowhards.

I'm saying that in order to take someone's playing advice seriously, I need to know they can play, an audio clip from them on the subject in question will confirm that. I wouldn't go to a music critic who can't play guitar for guitar lessons.

[Strat-itis]

^ Plus some people actually get really aggressive with the theory crusading. Eventually it gets to the point like 'bruh, can you even play? I've never heard a clip from you.'

Not the same thing as if people just wanna be low key, participate on the forum, and shoot the shit about jazz.

[Litterick]

I'm saying that in order to take someone's playing advice seriously, I need to know they can play, an audio clip from them on the subject in question will confirm that. I wouldn't go to a music critic who can't play guitar for guitar lessons.

I am saying members post clips for many reasons, not just for advice.

[Christian Miller]

To Christian's comment about understanding that it's threatening to post clips here. That's actually the main thing that's helped my playing. When I first joined in 2020, I thought like most intermediates I was cool because I had some talent and taste. Then I realized there are pro level players on here who can actually play and it drove me to hold myself accountable and step it up.

That's not what I meant. I usually feel disincentivised to post playing here for other reasons. I'm more likely to post to Instagram or sometimes Facebook. I'm not unusual among JGO members in that sense. "Dutchbopper" for example, now posts exclusively to other platforms.

I do my best and try to make it a supportive and helpful place for those who do post.