Three note chords C#-A-E. What chord name?

[Strat-itis]

Surely this must be a new valley for Jazz Guitar Online.

[ragman1]

Let's be very, very clear.

When Guy wrote this he knew nothing about using maj inversions and tonicization, he just got it wrong. Initially he called the chord a C#m6 but got it wrong. He forgot to raise the A of C6 to an A# as the 6th of C#m6. That's why it was initially an A, not an A#. In other words the C# A E was a mistake. He didn't know how to join up a C to a Dm with a passing chord.

Now the effing theorymeisters arrive and tell him it's not a mistake. I hope for his sake he resists being sucked into the lunatic world of theory where two plus two equals five just because you want it to.

In any case, it all ultimately rests on how it sounds. The passing dim chord sounds right. Summertime is a simple tune. Repeating the A sounds lame. You don't realise how lame till you've heard the A#. Anybody who thinks otherwise has no ear, no taste, no feel, and is probably a theory headcase. Advanced theory is fine in its place but that place is not here with someone at Guy's level on bleeding Summertime.

Half you people are so messed up in the head you don't know what day it is.

[wolflen]

Surely this must be a new valley for Jazz Guitar Online.

Well Strat..if you want the pearls you have to dive deep..they dont come to the shore..

Over the years I have read some threads they are way deeper...make far less sense..and have none of the results..yet
ramble on beyond several hundred posts..many from some of the "top minds" on six string exploration.

Long Live JGO...

[joe2758]

Surely this must be a new valley for Jazz Guitar Online.

ah, there it is

[ragman1]

After 20 years here I assure you it's not new, it's commonplace. In fact, it was worse back then. It's what too much knowledge does to you when it's not put in context.

[ragman1]

Allan got it right at post #24:

If the next chord is Dm are you sure your triad isn’t C# A# E? That’ll give you a C# diminished leading into the Dm. Nice and simple.

It's called brains.

[AllanAllen]

Christian explained how the A works too.

The beauty of jazz is that both options are fine. Personal taste is part of it. Bill Evans and what not…

[wolflen]

Half you people are so messed up in the head you don't know what day it is.

Ahh..which half might you be referring to...??..And more to the point..which half might you be in..??

By the way..it be Monday..All day..

[GuyBoden]

Let's be very, very clear.

When Guy wrote this he knew nothing about using maj inversions and tonicization, he just got it wrong. Initially he called the chord a C#m6 but got it wrong. He forgot to raise the A of C6 to an A# as the 6th of C#m6. That's why it was initially an A, not an A#. In other words the C# A E was a mistake. He didn't know how to join up a C to a Dm with a passing chord.

Now the effing theorymeisters arrive and tell him it's not a mistake. I hope for his sake he resists being sucked into the lunatic world of theory where two plus two equals five just because you want it to.

In any case, it all ultimately rests on how it sounds. The passing dim chord sounds right. Summertime is a simple tune. Repeating the A sounds lame. You don't realise how lame till you've heard the A#. Anybody who thinks otherwise has no ear, no taste, no feel, and is probably a theory headcase. Advanced theory is fine in its place but that place is not here with someone at Guy's level on bleeding Summertime.

Half you people are so messed up in the head you don't know what day it is.

Ragman, you need to relax and take it easy, I know I'm just a Hobby player, but it's only the chords for Summertime and there are some real wars going on elsewhere. Try to be calm, take a deep breath, chillout man. I suggest, you take up meditation.

[Christian Miller]

Christian explained how the A works too.

The beauty of jazz is that both options are fine. Personal taste is part of it. Bill Evans and what not…

Dunno mate, I just replied to the OP. I had no idea there was a diminished triad in play.

[Christian Miller]

I mean what it boils down to is whether you look at three note chords as there note chords and name them appropriately, or whether you see them as incomplete four note voicings.

In the former case you just name the thing.
In the latter case you need to know the context a bit.

[GuyBoden]

Dunno mate, I just replied to the OP. I had no idea there was a diminished triad in play.

I mean what it boils down to is whether you look at three note chords as there note chords and name them appropriately, or whether you see them as incomplete four note voicings.

In the former case you just name the thing.
In the latter case you need to know the context a bit.

It's the last chord in Bar five, notes C#-A-E

A C#dim chord has been suggested, not the F#m7/C# (A/C#)

[Christian Miller]

It's the last chord in Bar five, notes C#-A-E

A C#dim chord has been suggested, not the F#m7/C# (A/C#)

Is this your chart?

So IMO, F#m7/C# is mislabelled. Should be A/C#. Maybe A7/C# if we are interpreting these as cut down four note voicings.

It's not wrong, per se. It's just that if we use one of the other ones, the functional move to A7 to Dm6 is obvious. This makes it MUCH easier to understand. I know what I'd rather see in a big band chart.

C#o7 is a classic substitute. I use both. It's not what's in the dots.

The third chord is a Am/C to my ears, but I see why they'd say C6 in context. I'll allow it. But no-one writes CM6. Confusing. C6 is fine.

[JazzKatua]

Context and key centre makes a big difference.

It can be:
The first inversion of an A chord
C# minor b13. Nice texture if you're comping
Second inversion of an E6 11. This can be used as a I chord especially if your bass player is covering the root. You can play an F#-7 after it and a B7 to get the flavour of this context.

When you get into rootless voicings, like B7, or upper tension voicings, then I can fill a page of ways to hear this triad with progressions that bring it to life.
... ex: This chord over a low D gives you something you can use as a DMaj 7 with the 9th on top... resolve that 9 to a 3 (F#) and you'll treat yourself to a nice way to end tunes in the key of D if you have a 7 string guitar or a bass player.

You see many chords can be unexpectedly beautiful chords if you hear context.
Hope this helps.

Never heard of the acronym KISS?
Those triads were quite classical musically put FCOL; why complicate it if the original poster doesn't ask for it?

[JazzKatua]

F#m7/C# is mislabelled. Should be A/C#. Maybe A7/C# if we are interpreting these as cut down four note voicings.

Then, the functional move to Dm6 is obvious.

C#o7 is a classic substitute. I use both. It's not what's in the dots.

The third chord is a Am/C to my ears, but I see why they'd say C6 in context. I'll allow it. But no-one writes CM6. Confusing. C6 is fine.

Notation can be very confusing.
Watch this example: https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/wp-co...a-melody-1.png
Knowing the context I know it's Cminor, Fminor & Dm7b5, but with a CAPITAL letter M I'd assume it's a MAJOR which is not.
So sure, C6 is much better than CM6, but unfortunately it's being used anyway.

[GuyBoden]

Is this your chart?

So IMO, F#m7/C# is mislabelled. Should be A/C#. Maybe A7/C# if we are interpreting these as cut down four note voicings.

It's not wrong, per se. It's just that if we use one of the other ones, the functional move to A7 to Dm6 is obvious. This makes it MUCH easier to understand. I know what I'd rather see in a big band chart.

C#o7 is a classic substitute. I use both. It's not what's in the dots.

The third chord is a Am/C to my ears, but I see why they'd say C6 in context. I'll allow it. But no-one writes CM6. Confusing. C6 is fine.

Yes, it's my chart.

Many thanks, for clearing that up.

[Christian Miller]

Notation can be very confusing.
Watch this example: https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/wp-co...a-melody-1.png
Knowing the context I know it's Cminor, Fminor & Dm7b5, but with a CAPITAL letter M I'd assume it's a MAJOR which is not.
So sure, C6 is much better than CM6, but unfortunately it's being used anyway.

Yeah, I mean I regularly play in big bands. I've seen it all, trust me. But some of those charts go back to a time before standardised chord symbols.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, it's my chart.

Many thanks, for clearing that up.

Yeah, I don't know if you'll be in the position of writing out charts for other people, but I think it's good to stick to a standard approach. This is Berklee's for example:

Why Lead Sheets? | Berklee

I just use this. Stops confusion.

[mr. beaumont]

Is this your chart?

So IMO, F#m7/C# is mislabelled. Should be A/C#. Maybe A7/C# if we are interpreting these as cut down four note voicings.

It's not wrong, per se. It's just that if we use one of the other ones, the functional move to A7 to Dm6 is obvious. This makes it MUCH easier to understand. I know what I'd rather see in a big band chart.

C#o7 is a classic substitute. I use both. It's not what's in the dots.

The third chord is a Am/C to my ears, but I see why they'd say C6 in context. I'll allow it. But no-one writes CM6. Confusing. C6 is fine.

I believe I've told the story of the person I played with that wrote upper case M for major and lower case m for minor, but both M's had rounded tops.

I was able to context my way through a lot until we played "Here's That Rainy Day." First chord...guessed wrong.

[Christian Miller]

I was able to context my way through a lot until we played "Here's That Rainy Day." First chord...guessed wrong.

Haha, classic!

[rpjazzguitar]

As others have said, it's an A triad in first inversion.

To give it a more specific name it seems to me you have to think of what note you would first add to it while maintaining the harmonic flow you have in mind.

And whatever that might be, if you want C# A E and nothing else, and you don't want to specify context, you can write A/C# and that's what you'll get.

[AllanAllen]

Dunno mate, I just replied to the OP. I had no idea there was a diminished triad in play.

I played the chart and thought he might have been open to a nice and simple resolution. C#°7 to Dm is a basic Barry Harris move.

I didn’t mean to imply he was wrong. Just that if the A is A#, you get a diminished approach chord to Dm and Bobs your uncle.

I like simple answers that uncomplicate my question. So I look for those solutions.

[brent.h]

Here's something that might be useful:

https://www.sheetmusicsinger.com/wp-...Summertime.pdf

[pauln]

So, if the example was mistaken,
I still like the A minor to A major.
That has a rather familiar sound.

[Strat-itis]

Well Strat.. if you want the pearls you have to dive deep.. they don't come to the shore..

LMAO!