Three note chords C#-A-E. What chord name?

[ragman1]

Why call the second chord G13b9/Ab instead of simply Abo7? G13 has no real context here whereas Am6, Abo7, G-7, C7, Fmaj7, F6 is a classical old-school move from iii to I via a passing biiidim7.

That's how the Brazilians play it (and probably anyone else who knows they're doing):

5x455x - 4x345

I don't care what it's called. Am6 is fine by me and that other one is usually called a G13b9 with the b9 in the bass. That's the simple, obvious way to name them.

You could say it was Am6 - Abo but then a lot of players would get rather confused because it doesn't sound bossa enough.

Personally, to be analytical, I'd say it was D7 - G7 jazzed up a bit, that's all :-)

[PMB]

That's how the Brazilians play it (and probably anyone else who knows they're doing):

5x455x - 4x345

I don't care what it's called. Am6 is fine by me and that other one is usually called a G13b9 with the b9 in the bass. That's the simple, obvious way to name them.

Personally, to be analytical, I'd say it was D7 - G7 jazzed up a bit, that's all :-)

That's also how I play it but I can't see how G13b9/Ab is simpler than Abo7. The note E on top is just a note borrowed from the diminished scale. Diminished chords can have extensions like major, minors and dominants.

Sure, I also go for sound first before worrying about the name but it can help when discussing things on a bandstand (or in a forum)...

[ragman1]

I added a bit about the Abo to my post before I saw your answer.

[ragman1]

By the way, how do you play the C7? Some play C9, some play C7b9 and others, like me, play it as F#7b5 because it keeps the bass line going down and sounds good.

[PMB]

I'll play it differently every time depending what I hear from the rest of the band and what I'm hearing/feeling. Sometimes G-7 | Gb7b5 | Fmaj7 | or maybe G-7 | C9sus4 C7b9 | Fo7 | Fmaj7 |. I might even break up those last 2 bars into Fmaj7 G-7 | G#o7 F6/A | into a Bb11...

[ragman1]

Sounds good. Quite right, Gb7b5, it's a flat key!

[garybaldy]

[QUOTE=PMB;1465866]

Just to complicate things for some regarding the original post and the context of the question being 'Summertime' as confirmed by the OP, here is the 1935 published song sheet with a more recent vocal interpretation. Whatever you want to call the chords, there is no C# note used to lead to the next bar (thought by many to be a Dminor - which it is in this context). I posted this video earlier but it has been missed or more likely ignored. The bar before the 'Dminor' shows Am6 / E7 Am6 with the melody note on the E7 being an e and the melody note being c on the following Am6 (not c# btw).

[/QUOTE

I have no problem with reinventing standards but IMO Summertime has really suffered more than most from this process. The original slow tempo that echoes the song's lyrics is usually doubled and played in a generic funk style. Likewise, the distinctive opening parallel movement Am6 - E7/B has pretty much been replaced by Am7. The secondary dominant harmony of bar 7 has been filtered out and the countermelody removed. Bar 13-14 was originally written as C - Am - D - F/G, so much richer than the common substitutions.

Possibly the most reliable real book source for Summertime is contained in the old Just Jazz Real Book from Warner Bros:

https://geosci.uchicago.edu/~archer/...summertime.pdf

Here's the original piano score for reference:

Attachment 132293Attachment 132294Attachment 132295Attachment 132296

That's a reprint of the original score. The original is shown on the youtube clip. Had you not noticed?

[PMB]

Apologies garybaldy, for some reason I expected the YouTube clip would be the orchestral version from Porgy & Bess. Also, none of my comments were directed towards your post. I only quoted it to bring things back on track after a diversion to Corcovado.

[garybaldy]

Apologies garybaldy, for some reason I expected the YouTube clip would be the orchestral version from Porgy & Bess. Also, none of my comments were directed towards your post. I only quoted it to bring things back on track after a diversion to Corcovado.

It's OK. Easily missed. Yeah that Corcovado stuff threw me. Many folks seem not to quote what they are replying to. Get's me very confused and plays on my OCD.

[Cunamara]

It’s literally an A chord.

Is this thread a punishment for something I did wrong in a past life?

No, it's your punishment for reading the thread. This is voluntary on your part. You can always opt out as I do when I get tired of reading debates about how many angels can play guitar on the head of a pin.* In that light I am skipping forward.

It is literally an A triad. Christian's point about context being necessary is spot on. With that lacking in the first post, initially this looked like an obvious I-VI-ii, probably going to a V back to the I: Cmaj Amaj Dmin to most likely G7-Cmaj. The I-VI-ii-V (VI dom subbing for vi min) is of the 3 most common moves in jazz. The chromatically ascending bassline using the 1st inversion for the Amaj is kind of nice, though; the bass player is probably already doing that.

With the context eventually provided, the second look is that it's a corny version of Summertime** so the Dmin is not going to G in this instance- we're in Amin 1st inversion and going to the iv chord (Dmin), so the C#-A-E is the 1st inversion V of iv. Calling that an F#min7 2nd inversion is a stretch given the lack of an F# in the triad.


* as many as want to. They're angels.

**to be fair virtually all versions of Summertime are corny; it's an exceedingly difficult tune to not be corny. Especially if there's a vocalist. It's just one of those songs.

[James W]

I don't think Miles Davis's version is corny.

[Christian Miller]

No, it's your punishment for reading the thread. This is voluntary on your part. You can always opt out as I do when I get tired of reading debates about how many angels can play guitar on the head of a pin.* In that light I am skipping forward.

It is literally an A triad. Christian's point about context being necessary is spot on. With that lacking in the first post, initially this looked like an obvious I-VI-ii, probably going to a V back to the I: Cmaj Amaj Dmin to most likely G7-Cmaj. The I-VI-ii-V (VI dom subbing for vi min) is of the 3 most common moves in jazz. The chromatically ascending bassline using the 1st inversion for the Amaj is kind of nice, though; the bass player is probably already doing that.

With the context eventually provided, the second look is that it's a corny version of Summertime** so the Dmin is not going to G in this instance- we're in Amin 1st inversion and going to the iv chord (Dmin), so the C#-A-E is the 1st inversion V of iv. Calling that an F#min7 2nd inversion is a stretch given the lack of an F# in the triad.


* as many as want to. They're angels.

**to be fair virtually all versions of Summertime are corny; it's an exceedingly difficult tune to not be corny. Especially if there's a vocalist. It's just one of those songs.

Yeah good point. Take Back in Black for example. The C# in the bass is not something guitarists need to worry their little heads about.

Just read the thing left of the slash. It’ll be fine, cupcake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[garybaldy]

No, it's your punishment for reading the thread. This is voluntary on your part. You can always opt out as I do when I get tired of reading debates about how many angels can play guitar on the head of a pin.* In that light I am skipping forward.

It is literally an A triad. Christian's point about context being necessary is spot on. With that lacking in the first post, initially this looked like an obvious I-VI-ii, probably going to a V back to the I: Cmaj Amaj Dmin to most likely G7-Cmaj. The I-VI-ii-V (VI dom subbing for vi min) is of the 3 most common moves in jazz. The chromatically ascending bassline using the 1st inversion for the Amaj is kind of nice, though; the bass player is probably already doing that.

With the context eventually provided, the second look is that it's a corny version of Summertime** so the Dmin is not going to G in this instance- we're in Amin 1st inversion and going to the iv chord (Dmin), so the C#-A-E is the 1st inversion V of iv. Calling that an F#min7 2nd inversion is a stretch given the lack of an F# in the triad.


* as many as want to. They're angels.

**to be fair virtually all versions of Summertime are corny; it's an exceedingly difficult tune to not be corny. Especially if there's a vocalist. It's just one of those songs.

Ofcourse, the two quarter notes of the melody before the Dm chord in the melody are Enat and Cnat so no real need for a C#. I might try a A7#9 to Dm though.

[Mick-7]

Of course it needn't be said that the gold standard of this tune is the version by Big Brother and the Holding Company with Janis Joplin.

[garybaldy]

Of course it needn't be said that the gold standard of this tune is the version by Big Brother and the Holding Company with Janis Joplin.

Attachment 132347

I love that LP. I still have it but nothing to play it on.

[Mick-7]

I love that LP. I still have it but nothing to play it on.

When I was in high school, Peter Albin, Big Brother's bass player, lived across the street from a friend of mine.

A TRUE CHEAP THRILLS STORY; THE COVER - Big Brother & the Holding Company

[Cunamara]

If you just remove the idea of the chord being extended or with an alternate bass note...it's just so obviously an A minor sound...

It is, as occurs often in jazz and bossa nova as well, an ambiguous sound. Is it an Amin6 or is it a D9 with the bass note in the fifth? It's both and I can hear it as either.

The first cadence resolves to the F major with some chromatic detours to add interest and voice leading. If we remove those chromatic detours, the bones of it are a VI - ii - I. That's one way to look at it, another being your way: iii - ii - I. Both are found in charts and both are acceptable.

To my ears, the former is more "jazz" and the latter is perhaps more "bossa nova." This discussion made me have to think about how I play it. If I am comping for a vocalist or a horn playing the melody, I'm likely to use the Amin6 idea; if I am playing it as a solo piece, I approach it as a D7/A so that I can use the open E string and the fretted D string as a convenient and smoothish melodic approach (followed by an A/dim7 approaching the Gmin).

But even more controversially, what happens at bar 34?

[Cunamara]

I don't think Miles Davis's version is corny.

That, specifically, is why I said "virtually."

[Christian Miller]

It is, as occurs often in jazz and bossa nova as well, an ambiguous sound. Is it an Amin6 or is it a D9 with the bass note in the fifth? It's both and I can hear it as either.

The first cadence resolves to the F major with some chromatic detours to add interest and voice leading. If we remove those chromatic detours, the bones of it are a VI - ii - I. That's one way to look at it, another being your way: iii - ii - I. Both are found in charts and both are acceptable.

To my ears, the former is more "jazz" and the latter is perhaps more "bossa nova." This discussion made me have to think about how I play it. If I am comping for a vocalist or a horn playing the melody, I'm likely to use the Amin6 idea; if I am playing it as a solo piece, I approach it as a D7/A so that I can use the open E string and the fretted D string as a convenient and smoothish melodic approach (followed by an A/dim7 approaching the Gmin).

But even more controversially, what happens at bar 34?

I can’t think of anything in Corvado which isn’t fairly typical GASB harmony - unusually for a Jobim tune.

Bar 34 into the repeat is a fairly normal interrupted cadence unless I’ve missed something? People been doing that for a long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John A.]

When I was in high school, Peter Albin, Big Brother's bass player, lived across the street from a friend of mine.

A TRUE CHEAP THRILLS STORY; THE COVER - Big Brother & the Holding Company

My father was Peter S. Albin. I also grew up with Robert Zimmerman …

[Mick-7]

I also grew up with Robert Zimmerman…

But did he change his name?

[Cunamara]

I can’t think of anything in Corvado which isn’t fairly typical GASB harmony - unusually for a Jobim tune.

Bar 34 into the repeat is a fairly normal interrupted cadence unless I’ve missed something? People been doing that for a long time.

The 5th Edition Real Book puts the repeat at bar 34, back to the top; this is consistent with João Gilberto's recording, which does not resolve the form until the final time.. The Real Book 6th Edition adds two more bars (C6) each time through. Drives me nuts.

[Christian Miller]

The 5th Edition Real Book puts the repeat at bar 34, back to the top; this is consistent with João Gilberto's recording, which does not resolve the form until the final time.. The Real Book 6th Edition adds two more bars (C6) each time through. Drives me nuts.

Yeah. I remember that. Tbh it’s been a very long time since I consulted the Real Book on a standard. Mostly I use it for reading practice. I like the obscure 1970s fusion charts which are all missing from 6th ed.

Some very cool tunes buried in those pages too.

There’s some Jack Zucker charts in the vol 2 and 3 (IIRC) Lots of fourths.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John A.]

But did he change his name?

We still call him Robert.