Three note chords C#-A-E. What chord name?

[pamosmusic]

Just the Am A7 Dm move in this thread. I mean, A7 will get you to Dm and D just the same. So plugging a minor V before it should work. Sometimes I sub Emb75 A7(b9) to get to Dmaj with some spice.

Like I said, I was thinking about this move Am A7 Dm and I like to try things in different places.

Might work in some instances but context is important too and it’s mostly that I to I7 to IV or i to I7 to IV move

[AllanAllen]

It seems to work over the ii V back to the top of All of Me.

[pamosmusic]

It seems to work over the ii V back to the top of All of Me.

If it works it works.

I think I would just sort of put them in different buckets or whatever. Same chords doing different jobs.

So the caution i guess is just that chords don’t always work one to one like that, when those chords aren’t there to do the same thing.

[AllanAllen]

But maybe they go by so fast, it'll be close enough for jazz.

I couldn't hop 2 neighbors fences to catch the bus to school every day. But that route saved my butt a few times.

[Strat-itis]

It's not a 2-5-1. It's chord melody in the minor 1, then a secondary dominant on the 1 going to the minor 4.

[AllanAllen]

It's not a 2-5-1. It's chord melody in the minor 1, then a secondary dominant on the 1 going to the minor 4.

I'm taking what was discussed and applying it somewhere else. Step 2 of learning musical lines is to manipulate them.

[Strat-itis]

[PMB]

I believe I've told the story of the person I played with that wrote upper case M for major and lower case m for minor, but both M's had rounded tops.

I was able to context my way through a lot until we played "Here's That Rainy Day." First chord...guessed wrong.

Funny you mention that tune, Jeff. I've heard the first 4 bars played as either major or minor. I like to use them both - major for the 'A' section moving to a minor iv in bar 9 with those qualities then inverted: minor when it moves to the 'B' section and major IV in bar 25. Here's my chart to give you the idea:

[PMB]

Coming back to the topic of C#-A-E, maybe someone's already commented on this but when playing root + guide tone shells for 6th and 7th chords, one note has to be sacrificed.

In classical harmony, we're taught that root-based triads are the most stable followed by 2nd inversions then 1st inversions. With 6th and 7th chords, the same rule applies and the reason is more readily apparent. When playing these as three-note shells, only the root and 2nd inversion contain both guide tones as demonstrated by these A7 drop-3 inversions:



As a result, with chords that are missing one of those guide tone 3rds, 6ths/7ths like the first inversion 'A' chord you cited, context is even more important when deciding upon a name. Without such a reference, the first chord in your Summertime example could be D7/A rather than Am6 (I've come across either of these same chords in lead sheets for the opening of Corcovado).

[Christian Miller]

Coming back to the topic of C#-A-E, maybe someone's already commented on this but when playing root + guide tone shells for 6th and 7th chords, one note has to be sacrificed.

In classical harmony, we're taught that root-based triads are the most stable followed by 2nd inversions then 1st inversions. With 6th and 7th chords, the same rule applies and the reason is more readily apparent. When playing these as three-note shells, only the root and 2nd inversion contain both guide tones as demonstrated by these A7 drop-3 inversions:



As a result, with chords that are missing one of those guide tone 3rds, 6ths/7ths like the first inversion 'A' chord you cited, context is even more important when deciding upon a name. Without such a reference, the first chord in your Summertime example could be D7/A rather than Am6 (I've come across either of these same chords in lead sheets for the opening of Corcovado).

Yes - obviously that shell voicing rule doesn't count for the second inversion seventh chords (with the fifth in the bass) and in this case it kind of depends. Usually if it's a chord with the bass on the second (V6/4/3, for instance in the Rule of the Octave) - we want to include the 6th from the bass (3rd of the chord) as that's the leading tone.

However, I don't think this is especially relevant for jazz, because the 5th is usually omitted from 6th chord in "Freddie Green" voicings (actually George Van Eps voicings). If we followed the classical theory logic we would be calling a standard shell grip for a Bb6 a Gm/Bb - and my feeling is that is confusing and doesn't reflect jazz practice.

The same is true for the first chord of Summertime in my view - in my view it is Am6, even if it might be that Gershwin looked at it the other way.

For Corcovado I suspect the chord symbol comes from trying to reflect the 4th that's in the melody, which seems a bit unnecessary to me as it is a lower diatonic neighbour of the 5th which is the main melody note, but there you go. Perhaps Brazilian buffs can expand on what should be there - maybe Jobim was thinking D7/A.

But the chord seems to be behaving like an Am to me.

One obvious reason for this is that 6th (as in the jazz usage) and 7th chords do not have a tonic function in classical harmony, whereas they do in jazz.

[mr. beaumont]

I've seen Corcovado notated as D7/A.

I can't hear it as anything but an A minor sound.

If I've learned anything from listening to good bossa players, it's that they're gonna play a 6th/4th/3rd/2nd string chord voicing 9 times out of ten, even if that means it's a fifth on the bottom and not a root.

For more on this, watch Beato's embarrassingly bad analyzation of "The Girl From Ipanema."

[Mick-7]

I've seen Corcovado notated as D7/A. I can't hear it as anything but an A minor sound.

This sounds like an A minor chord to you? -- | 5-x-4-5-3-x |

Versus? -- | 5-x-5-5-3-x |

[Christian Miller]

Context....

[mr. beaumont]

This is a good example of "What the chart says is wrong. On multiple levels" (iReal has this as D7/A which leads me to believe the original not-legal Real Book had it that way. It seems like most of the mistakes in iReal are from that book)

If you listen to the recording, it's an Am6...which would be a D9/A.

The chart is wrong at being wrong.

[Christian Miller]

This is a good example of "What the chart says is wrong. On multiple levels" (iReal has this as D7/A which leads me to believe the original not-legal Real Book had it that way. It seems like most of the mistakes in iReal are from that book)

If you listen to the recording, it's an Am6...which would be a D9/A.

The chart is wrong at being wrong.

Yes the OG real book has D7/A


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[rpjazzguitar]

I think Jobim played 5x455x. Next chord has an Ab in the bass, probably, 4x345x. Maybe followed by 3x233x. Nice smooth voice leading.

D9/A? Am6? Is the name important? The way I hear it is as more of a dominant leading somewhere than a tonic. So, I'd go with D9/A. That has the advantage of having both the melody notes in the chord, if you consider that an advantage. Seems to me that if the comping instrument plays Am6 and the melody hits the D note, the audience hears D9 anyway.

[mr. beaumont]

If you just remove the idea of the chord being extended or with an alternate bass note...it's just so obviously an A minor sound...

[pamosmusic]

This sounds like an A minor chord to you? -- | 5-x-4-5-3-x |

Versus? -- | 5-x-5-5-3-x |

Well the first note in the melody is E … so if we’re going to be snarky about it …

”This sounds like a D7 to you? — | 5-x-6-2-2-x”

[ragman1]

Oh, for god's sake. Just play Am6 and G13b9/Ab.



And call it what you like. Why are you so worried about what it's called?

[garybaldy]

Yes, they are very simple Freddie Green style three note chords.

I've resorted to asking Artificial Intelligence. (AI to the rescue. A Major)

But, I'm calling it an 'F#m7/C#' chord, not sure if this is much help.

For context, here is the 4 bars of Summertime. Note the last chord F#m7/C# has the notes C#-A-E.
Attachment 132152

Just to complicate things for some regarding the original post and the context of the question being 'Summertime' as confirmed by the OP, here is the 1935 published song sheet with a more recent vocal interpretation. Whatever you want to call the chords, there is no C# note used to lead to the next bar (thought by many to be a Dminor - which it is in this context). I posted this video earlier but it has been missed or more likely ignored. The bar before the 'Dminor' shows Am6 / E7 Am6 with the melody note on the E7 being an e and the melody note being c on the following Am6 (not c# btw).

[PMB]

Oh, for god's sake. Just play Am6 and G13b9/Ab.



And call it what you like. Why are you so worried about what it's called?

Why call the second chord G13b9/Ab instead of simply Abo7? G13 has no real context here whereas Am6, Abo7, G-7, C7, Fmaj7, F6 is a classical old-school move from iii to I via a passing biiidim7.

[pamosmusic]

Oh, for god's sake. Just play Am6 and G13b9/Ab.



And call it what you like. Why are you so worried about what it's called?

Hi there. Did you look at Micks post long enough to notice that the voicing he posted is not this one?

Maybe hold off on the whole “Ragman act” at least until you’re caught up?

[PMB]

[QUOTE=garybaldy;1465852]Just to complicate things for some regarding the original post and the context of the question being 'Summertime' as confirmed by the OP, here is the 1935 published song sheet with a more recent vocal interpretation. Whatever you want to call the chords, there is no C# note used to lead to the next bar (thought by many to be a Dminor - which it is in this context). I posted this video earlier but it has been missed or more likely ignored. The bar before the 'Dminor' shows Am6 / E7 Am6 with the melody note on the E7 being an e and the melody note being c on the following Am6 (not c# btw).

[/QUOTE

I have no problem with reinventing standards but IMO Summertime has really suffered more than most from this process. The original slow tempo that echoes the song's lyrics is usually doubled and played in a generic funk style. Likewise, the distinctive opening parallel movement Am6 - E7/B has pretty much been replaced by Am7. The secondary dominant harmony of bar 7 has been filtered out and the countermelody removed. Bar 13-14 was originally written as C - Am - D - F/G, so much richer than the common substitutions.

Possibly the most reliable real book source for Summertime is contained in the old Just Jazz Real Book from Warner Bros:

https://geosci.uchicago.edu/~archer/...summertime.pdf

Here's the original piano score for reference:

[ragman1]

Personally, I never cared for the original piano version. It may sound okay on old recordings but it's not so good translated to modern versions.

Usually I play it like this, for what it's worth. It serves me well, I like it.

Am6/E7/B - % - % - Am6/A7b13
Dm/C#+ - G/D/Bm7b5 - E7/Bb7b5 - E7/E7+/D

Am6/E7/B - % - % - %
CM7/Am7 - F7/E7 - Am6/E7/B - Am6/E7#9

It looks complicated but it's actually easy to play and not difficult to improvise over.

Here's another one from the old Real Book that might interest someone. I don't know what its origin is.

[Mick-7]

Well the first note in the melody is E … so if we’re going to be snarky about it…

I was replying to mr. beaumont's comment: "I can't hear it (D7/A) as anything but an A minor sound," didn't realize he was referring to a specific chord voicing.

So the progression was like this?

D9/A | 5-x-4-5-5-x | > G13b9/Ab | 4-x-3-4-5-x | > Gm7| 3-x-3-3-3-x |

The D9 sounds dominant to me, rather than minor, in that context.