Three note chords C#-A-E. What chord name?

[djg]

And where is the b7 in A C# E?

Has anyone in this thread has called it an A7/C#? That's different than A/C#. These little bits matter to the uneducated, and by uneducated I mean myself.

i guess you have walked up an A7 chord before? or harmonized the first 4 notes of blue monk? voicing starting with R 7th 3rd and walking up to 3rd R 5th? it doesnt matter that there is no 7th in the last voicing. somtimes you just need to get over these little bits

[Strat-itis]

It's taught in functional harmony that triads also function as dominant chords.

[ragman1]

The Summer of Rhythm has nothing to do with elementary school music

Why has it got the same name? Pity, I was quite looking forward to the Bunny Trail

[Christian Miller]

I'm still looking for phlogiston.

I think I found some stuck to my bathroom mirror


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[Christian Miller]

You bastard, you're going to make me try to understand figured bass again.

Rumbled


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[Christian Miller]

I mean the summer rhythm thing?

It means give me 200 quid or GTFO


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[Christian Miller]

Actually give me £200 or you get the banjo


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[Christian Miller]

It's taught in functional harmony that triads also function as dominant chords.

Yeah sure - sometimes when you’re reading it makes it easier. But really you should be able to clock A-Dm is a V-I


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[John A.]

I think I found some stuck to my bathroom mirror


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That's between you and Thomas S. Kuhn.

[Strat-itis]

Yeah sure - sometimes when you’re reading it makes it easier. But really you should be able to clock A-Dm is a V-I.

I know. I said so in an earlier post:

It's A for fs sake. How can you not know what a 3 note triad is? An even bigger hint is it literally resolves up a 4th to the 4 chord.

[Christian Miller]

I know. I said so in an earlier post:



Since we're (unnecessarily) teaching each other here, it's not V-I, it's i-iv. :P

It's actually both.

[Strat-itis]

It's not both. D- is not the tonic, it's the 4 chord. A- is the tonic, A is a secondary dominant. We both know this.

[mr. beaumont]

Why has it got the same name? Pity, I was quite looking forward to the Bunny Trail

I don't know. They stole my intellectual property and I'm suing their asses.

[mr. beaumont]

Ah yes, the summer of people who just didn't get what the subject is.

Man, people had a hard time with that, didn't they?

[Christian Miller]

It's not both. D- is not the tonic, it's the 4 chord. A- is the tonic, A is a secondary dominant. We both know this.

The A tonicises the Dm. Which means Dm can be considered a temporary tonic. Or not. Depends on what you find useful.

When is a tonicisation a modulation? When is it not?

[Strat-itis]

The A tonicises the Dm. It can be considered a temporary tonic. Or not. Depends on what you find useful.

When is a tonicisation a modulation?

Right. Another early anecdote from back in the 00s was when a teacher in school was talking about Misty. He said the Bb-7 to Eb7 to Abmaj7 in the first line does tonicize the Abmaj7, but that going to the 4 chord doesn't really imply changing keys. I've always agreed.

[Christian Miller]

Right. Another early anecdote from back in the 00s was when a teacher in school was talking about Misty. He said the Bb-7 to Eb7 to Abmaj7 in the first line does tonicize the Abmaj7, but that going to the 4 chord doesn't really imply changing keys. I've always agreed.

Actually I tend to agree with that perspective. And TBF if I was reading this progression in context I probably would view it as a move to IVm, because it is often followed by a strong cadential move (F7 E7) back in Am rather than doing Dm stuff.

In the same way as Ab major going to Ab minor is really a common chord progression in Eb - which for me is the important context for Misty. Ab to Abm and back to Eb is very much "Eb major stuff" not "Ab major stuff" (most of the time). Whereas if the Ab was followed by a 6-2-5-1 or something, it would feel more like a true modulation because that is Ab major stuff.

So fair enough.

BUT - you do get people, and other teachers, who look at it the other way.

On the micro-scale - you are looking at it as a move to Dm. C# is the local leading tone. C#o7 is the local leading tone diminished, for instance. So you frame it terms of the Dm in terms of those two chords.

Locally, the scalic choices are like there's been a modulation and the IV chord is a temporary I. Conventionally, we hear/play Ab Ionian on that chord in Misty, not the Lydian. We play D minor not D Dorian #4 in the Summertime example - for that specific moment.

[Strat-itis]

Actually I tend to agree with that perspective. And TBF if I was reading this progression in context I probably would view it as a move to IVm, because it is often followed by a strong cadential move (F7 E7) back in Am rather than doing Dm stuff.

In the same way as Ab major going to Ab minor is really a common chord progression in Eb - which for me is the important context for Misty. Ab to Abm and back to Eb is very much "Eb major stuff" not "Ab major stuff" (most of the time). Whereas if the Ab was followed by a 6-2-5-1 or something, it would feel more like a true modulation because that is Ab major stuff.

So fair enough.

Yes

BUT - you do get people, and other teachers, who look at it the other way.

On the micro-scale - you are looking at it as a move to Dm. C# is the local leading tone. C#o7 is the local leading tone diminished, for instance. So you frame it terms of the Dm in terms of those two chords.

Locally, the scalic choices are like there's been a modulation and the IV chord is a temporary I. Conventionally, we hear/play Ab Ionian on that chord in Misty, not the Lydian. We play D minor not D Dorian #4 in the Summertime example - for that specific moment.

Yes. I personally don't find this view useful as I think it's important to distinguish the duality of jazz's basic harmonic movements, and the chromatic embellishment on top of that. Some sections genuinely are new key centers, but not going to the 4. I think this view holds even though you're not really raising the 4th scale degree to match the tonal center in major when you go to play on the 4 chord. However in minor, the diatonic mode of the 4 chord is Dorian.

[mr. beaumont]

When is a tonicisation a modulation? When is it not?

And when does it matter outside of class?

[Strat-itis]

And when does it matter outside of class?

It's extremely important. Traditional jazz uses basic mellifluous harmony and root movement, with chromaticism on top of that. So you need to be able to identify those basic movements and have them influence your playing, not just bastardize them.

[ragman1]

Tal-175 answered this in post #3 of this thread in unequivocal language. Just for the record.

It's Amaj/C# tonicizing the Dminor chord that comes after. It's a dominant passing chord. It's a dominant chord without the 7th which is very common outside of jazz. It is in first inversion which creates a chromatic voice leading in the bass (also very common).

I wish I'd seen it and understood it.

[Strat-itis]

Yes, that's a very good explanation.

[pamosmusic]

It's extremely important. Traditional jazz uses basic mellifluous harmony and root movement, with chromaticism on top of that. So you need to be able to identify those basic movements and have them influence your playing, not just bastardize them.

And you treat that Bbm Eb7 differently in Misty if you’re thinking of it as a brief modulation, rather than a short tonicization?

[Strat-itis]

It affects your phrasing to have basic root movement scaffolding in your mental outline. My first instrument was bass. I find the basic movements are still important to hear even if there's more complicated stuff going on over them.

Like in the Summertime example, you wouldn't think A-, B-7, C6, B-7, A-, A7 etc. You think it's A- with movements on top of that, then using a secondary dominant to get to the D-. It makes a difference. You need to be able to think in levels.

[pamosmusic]

It affects your phrasing to have basic root movement scaffolding in your mental outline. My first instrument was bass. I find the basic movements are still important to hear even if there's more complicated stuff going on over them.

Like in the Summertime example, you wouldn't think A-, B-7, C6, B-7, A-, A7 etc. You think it's A- with movements on top of that, then using a secondary dominant to get to the D-. It makes a difference. You need to be able to think in levels.

Right but that doesn’t have anything to do with the difference between a modulation and a temporary tonicization.