Why the need to gig?

[mr. beaumont]

What does people eating in a restaurant like to listen more: What a Wonderfull World or Giant Steps?
Does Coltrane's music fit the Italian restaurant?
What a Wonderfull World-It fits every restaurant because I had such an order.

Giant Steps as a bossa and played not too loudly would work just fine.

Seems to me restaurant people are ok with most stuff as long as it doesn't intrude on their conversation.

[AllanAllen]

Whatever song my band plays is jazz because I say we are a jazz band.

Kris, it sounds like you don’t understand the assignment of a restaurant gig, it’s not the place for free jazz space fusion freakouts. It’s not on the venue if you misunderstand your role, or misrepresent your group just to get a gig.

And yeah, don’t play Giant Steps, do play Wonderful World.

[Mick-7]

And half the standard jazz repertoire was not written to be "jazz" ... but rather was made that way by Coleman Hawkins or Miles or Ahmad Jamal.

A lot more than half I think, these were the "Tin Pan Alley" pop tunes of their day - mostly of the 30's and 40's.

[pamosmusic]

A lot more than half I think, these were the "Tin Pan Alley" pop tunes of their day - mostly of the 30's and 40's.

Yeah that's probably true. With no data whatsoever, I think half is blues and rhythm changes contrafacts, honestly

But yeah -- no idea of actual numbers but one of the two major categories of the standard repertoire is specifically "tunes not written to be jazz tunes"

[pamosmusic]

Whatever song my band plays is jazz because I say we are a jazz band.

Kris, it sounds like you don’t understand the assignment of a restaurant gig, it’s not the place for free jazz space fusion freakouts. It’s not on the venue if you misunderstand your role, or misrepresent your group just to get a gig.

And yeah, don’t play Giant Steps, do play Wonderful World.

I really don't get the whole thing where some songs are acceptable and others aren't.

Yes, there are tunes that people know and love. But if you're playing the average restaurant or bar gig, I have a hard time believing that you could fill an entire set with those tunes. What a Wonderful World. Probably Ipanema. After that you're getting into stuff that maybe the 70+ set knows, or that maybe some people remember from the childhood at their grandparents' or whatever.

I think "vibe" is way more important than a recognizable melody. Is the melody singable? Are the tempos mixed tastefully and probably not too fast on the top end. IS THE VOLUME APPROPRIATE. That kind of thing.

Also, answering for myself obvs ... I don't play Giant Steps on gigs because I'm terrible at it, not because it wouldn't work if I were good at it. Oops.

[ruger9]

Well, this is art, so if you're looking for objective fact, you're looking in the wrong place.

And a song isn't jazz on its own. It's jazz when its rendered that way. Literally anything can be played as jazz, but that doesn't make everything jazz.

Terence Blanchard plays Footprints as a straight eighth funk thing.

And half the standard jazz repertoire was not written to be "jazz" ... but rather was made that way by Coleman Hawkins or Miles or Ahmad Jamal.

I'm definitely not "looking" for objective anything. When it comes to music, very little is objective IMO. I actually don't believe in "boundaries" really, I mean yes of course you can call The Rolling Stones "rock" and BB King "blues" and Louis Armstrong "jazz", I'm not really talking about that. I guess I just find it.. amusing... when some people do have the objective, hard rules as to what "is" and "isn't" jazz. And I specify jazz because from my 55 years on the planet, jazzers are the only ones who seem to look at it like that (not all jazzers, of course... perhaps not even most... I just don't really see "what is real blues" or "what is "real rock" conversations anywhere. Jazzers seem to be more anal... uh, perhaps structured? LOL...about the whole thing (no offense meant to jazz or those who play it: I love it. I've been listening to some form of jazz literally from birth, thanks to my parents.)

[pamosmusic]

I just don't really see "what is real blues" or "what is "real rock" conversations anywhere.

Oh man, they're everywhere.

Tell a metal head that they play death metal and see what they say (unless of course they are actually playing death metal -- honestly, I wouldn't know).

And remember how much rock DJs hated Disco? Not really the same thing, I guess, but stemming from the same superiority complex.

I'm definitely not "looking" for objective anything. When it comes to music, very little is objective IMO. I actually don't believe in "boundaries" really, I mean yes of course you can call The Rolling Stones "rock" and BB King "blues" and Louis Armstrong "jazz", I'm not really talking about that. I guess I just find it.. amusing... when some people do have the objective, hard rules as to what "is" and "isn't" jazz. And I specify jazz because from my 55 years on the planet, jazzers are the only ones who seem to look at it like that (not all jazzers, of course... perhaps not even most... I just don't really see "what is real blues" or "what is "real rock" conversations anywhere. Jazzers seem to be more anal... uh, perhaps structured? LOL...about the whole thing (no offense meant to jazz or those who play it: I love it. I've been listening to some form of jazz literally from birth, thanks to my parents.

And jazz is very very very loose with these things -- I mentioned Robert Glasper, Ambrose Akinmusire, Kamasi Washington, and Jason Moran who are all very much involved in the hip hop scene and have let that bleed over into their own music. Mary Halvorson probably can't be usefully described as jazz to anyone unfamiliar with her, but she still turns up on downbeat polls. Kris posted Brad Mehldau's stuff. I mentioned Keith Jarrett before.

Aaron Parks, Ben Wendel, and that whole set are not recording anything you could usefully describe as jazz, even though they play standards gigs in New York and sound incredible when they do. What do you do with The Bad Plus?

Most of my friends in New York were doing side gigs for singer songwriters. The usual rhythm section from the Thai restaurant where I'd play on Tuesday nights is the rhythm section for Sammy Rae and the Friends now.

There's also Nic Payton and his insistence on calling his music Black American Music, which goes back to Coltrane, Ayler, and Amiri Baraka.

A lot of the argument over the terminology seems to stem not from gatekeeping (though some absolutely does), but rather from the fact that jazz isn't restrictive enough to give the listener much of an idea of what they're going to hear when they spin a Kurt Rosenwinkel album that was listed in the genre. Which is a very cool thing.

Jazz musicians probably aren't any more interested in genre boundaries than others are. Of course some people are really bound up in that stuff, but so are some people in other areas also. I don't think any more in jazz though ... and I wouldn't be surprised if it were less common in jazz.

[rpjazzguitar]

A few disjointed thoughts on whatever this subject is, which I'm not sure about.

People like familiar songs. I know that because I've been doing whole gigs of unfamiliar songs -- and the audience usually responds better when we finally play something they know.

We recently had an audience member go crazy for one of our unfamiliar songs, Asa Branca. Turned out, he was from that part of Brazil and knew the composer and the music. Proving again, and from another perspective, that people love songs they know.

If you are playing unfamiliar songs with vocals in another language, then the quality of the groove becomes really important.

The other day I played a session with a bunch of guys who are far more jazz purists than I am. Mostly reading modern sounding originals. After listening to their solos I ended up wondering if I'm a jazz musician at all. But, I hear the music the way I hear it and I'm too old to change that much.

[pamosmusic]

A few disjointed thoughts on whatever this subject is, which I'm not sure about.

People like familiar songs. I know that because I've been doing whole gigs of unfamiliar songs -- and the audience usually responds better when we finally play something they know.

We recently had an audience member go crazy for one of our unfamiliar songs, Asa Branca. Turned out, he was from that part of Brazil and knew the composer and the music. Proving again, and from another perspective, that people love songs they know.

Well played. This is lovely.

[ruger9]

A few disjointed thoughts on whatever this subject is, which I'm not sure about.

People like familiar songs. I know that because I've been doing whole gigs of unfamiliar songs -- and the audience usually responds better when we finally play something they know.

We recently had an audience member go crazy for one of our unfamiliar songs, Asa Branca. Turned out, he was from that part of Brazil and knew the composer and the music. Proving again, and from another perspective, that people love songs they know.

If you are playing unfamiliar songs with vocals in another language, then the quality of the groove becomes really important.

The other day I played a session with a bunch of guys who are far more jazz purists than I am. Mostly reading modern sounding originals. After listening to their solos I ended up wondering if I'm a jazz musician at all. But, I hear the music the way I hear it and I'm too old to change that much.

Jim Campilongo is categorized as jazz, IMO only due to the fact there is nowhere else to put him. He DOES play some jazz tunes. But in general, I would not call his music jazz. Bill Frisell either. When someone asks Jim "what kind of music do you play?", he answers "guitar music." Perfect.

[kris]

Whatever song my band plays is jazz because I say we are a jazz band.

Kris, it sounds like you don’t understand the assignment of a restaurant gig, it’s not the place for free jazz space fusion freakouts. It’s not on the venue if you misunderstand your role, or misrepresent your group just to get a gig.

And yeah, don’t play Giant Steps, do play Wonderful World.

I played a lot of gigs in restaurants ... probably several hundred.
And I think I know what's going on.
You can guess why I played there ....

[kris]

Giant Steps as a bossa and played not too loudly would work just fine.

Seems to me restaurant people are ok with most stuff as long as it doesn't intrude on their conversation.

Jeff,
Did you play in restaurants?
Ok.
And how will the restaurant menazer appear and will say why you play it -get something for people ...?

[ruger9]

Giant Steps as a bossa and played not too loudly would work just fine.

Seems to me restaurant people are ok with most stuff as long as it doesn't intrude on their conversation.

Ooh, one of you should play Rage Against The Machine's "Killing In The Name" and see what happens... just play it as a Bossa nova, quietly...

[pamosmusic]

Ooh, one of you should play Rage Against The Machine's "Killing In The Name" and see what happens... just play it as a Bossa nova, quietly...

We used to play this in my high school band. Not as a bossa though, unfortunately.

[kris]

I prefer jazz clubs.

[AllanAllen]

I prefer jazz clubs.

Well, that’s a different conversation entirely.

[AllanAllen]

I'm definitely not "looking" for objective anything. When it comes to music, very little is objective IMO. I actually don't believe in "boundaries" really, I mean yes of course you can call The Rolling Stones "rock" and BB King "blues" and Louis Armstrong "jazz", I'm not really talking about that. I guess I just find it.. amusing... when some people do have the objective, hard rules as to what "is" and "isn't" jazz. And I specify jazz because from my 55 years on the planet, jazzers are the only ones who seem to look at it like that (not all jazzers, of course... perhaps not even most... I just don't really see "what is real blues" or "what is "real rock" conversations anywhere. Jazzers seem to be more anal... uh, perhaps structured? LOL...about the whole thing (no offense meant to jazz or those who play it: I love it. I've been listening to some form of jazz literally from birth, thanks to my parents.)

You’ve never heard this?

Real blues is one man with an acoustic guitar. Anything else is blues rock

[mr. beaumont]

Ooh, one of you should play Rage Against The Machine's "Killing In The Name" and see what happens... just play it as a Bossa nova, quietly...

Nah, it has boring changes.

Kris, i've played more wallpaper gigs than i care to mention. At true wallpaper gigs requests were actually pretty uncommon...people just liked the vibe. If i did get reqiests it was often for some Beatles or something Sinatra sang.

These gigs weren't the most exciting, but it is how i got my solo guitar chops together.

[AllanAllen]

Nah, it has boring changes.

Kris, i've played more wallpaper gigs than i care to mention. At true wallpaper gigs requests were actually pretty uncommon...people just liked the vibe. If i did get reqiests it was often for some Beatles or something Sinatra sang.

These gigs weren't the most exciting, but it is how i got my solo guitar chops together.

Do you have a clip of Solo Bossa Giant Steps? For research purposes.

The research is, I want to steal your homework for my own solo gigs.

[pamosmusic]

Do you have a clip of Solo Bossa Giant Steps? For research purposes.

The research is, I want to steal your homework for my own solo gigs.

No idea about solo, but this is the canonical bossa Giant Steps of course:

[Litterick]

And jazz is very very very loose with these things -- I mentioned Robert Glasper, Ambrose Akinmusire, Kamasi Washington, and Jason Moran who are all very much involved in the hip hop scene and have let that bleed over into their own music. Mary Halvorson probably can't be usefully described as jazz to anyone unfamiliar with her, but she still turns up on downbeat polls. Kris posted Brad Mehldau's stuff. I mentioned Keith Jarrett before.

Aaron Parks, Ben Wendel, and that whole set are not recording anything you could usefully describe as jazz, even though they play standards gigs in New York and sound incredible when they do. What do you do with The Bad Plus?

You cannot describe them as jazz because you are hung up on an outdated and reactionary definition: "swing, blues, and improvisation". Wynton Marsalis wants jazz to be a kind of chamber music, rejecting everything that has happened since the 1950s. But jazz moved on. The definition does not fit the facts.

Besides, as Adam Neeley tweeted:

The problem with the Marsalis definition of jazz as having 1) swing, 2) blues, and 3) improvisation...

...is that bluegrass music fits that definition perfectly, and Bossa Nova has none of it, but jazz school students study Jobim, not Earl Scruggs.

Genre is a weird thing.

[Stringswinger]

Do you have a clip of Solo Bossa Giant Steps? For research purposes.

The research is, I want to steal your homework for my own solo gigs.

Not quite Bossa (is any solo guitar really Bossa?) But this is what to aim for (and have no fear, none of us will ever get all the way there):

[AllanAllen]

No idea about solo, but this is the canonical bossa Giant Steps of course:

Thanks, I’ll let you in on a secret. I don’t listen to much Metheny… I’m mostly into swing and Kenny Burrell.

[Stringswinger]

My definition of jazz is improvised (to some extent), mostly instrumental music. It can swing or not. It can be bluesy or not. It can have vocals or not.

Bob Wills is jazz. Gabor Szabo is jazz. Julian Lage is jazz. Like Jimmy Smith once said, jazz was, is and always will be.

[AllanAllen]

You cannot describe them as jazz because you are hung up on an outdated and reactionary definition: "swing, blues, and improvisation". Wynton Marsalis wants jazz to be a kind of chamber music, rejecting everything that has happened since the 1950s. But jazz moved on. The definition does not fit the facts.

Besides, as Adam Neeley tweeted:

The problem with the Marsalis definition of jazz as having 1) swing, 2) blues, and 3) improvisation...

...is that bluegrass music fits that definition perfectly, and Bossa Nova has none of it, but jazz school students study Jobim, not Earl Scruggs.

Genre is a weird thing.

Adam Neely is a YouTube influencer. Why should we care about his definition of jazz?