Chief criticisms - Chord Scale Theory

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 05:56 PM

You don't think herbie, ron, and Tony are improvising?

And actually, yes, it was written on a chart, the basic framework...and no names for any of the chords!

Absolutely I'll work out a solo arrangement, sounds like fun!

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Well, lots of people like to analyze things: works of fiction, poetry, social / economic changes, fashion, movies, music. If you have no interest in the analysis of jazz compositions and improvised performances, ignore it. Play whatever you like. No one here is trying to tell you what to play or how to think about jazz.

But several of us have grown tired of your periodic appearance in threads in which you have no interest and rather than just saying that once and moving along, you try to derail the conversation by pointing out that YOU think the subject at hand is a waste of time. Pity you don't see this irritating behavior as a waste of your time. Many of us see it as a waste of ours.

Come on, Mark. I did not say that analysis was worthless. And quite frankly, do you think you could play Nefertiti as a solo guitar work? Could you score out the piano or horn parts? Or are you of the opinion the guys just whipped this recording up as an improve? Born yesterday or the day before?

**Jonah** · 01-17-2016, 05:58 PM

CST to me appears to be a certified pool of approved notes for use over a particular chord. Given that the chord tonic, 3rd, 5th and 7th are intrinsic to the chord - that constitutes a "duh". Add in the 9th, 11th, and 13ths plus relative flats and sharps for all the notes "permitted" and you don't have much left to "get approved" (1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13 -permitted). That leaves the 2nd. So overwhelming.

Waste of time.

the problem of CST is poor theoretical apparatus... it's not described properly from theoretial point of..

and it was also profaned much by multiple methods where it is used as kind of 'improvization method for dummies'...

why it happend so.. partly on social and historical reasons.. rock and jazz are just not too much in theories (in classical theory was a part of tradition)

Actually CST is another approach to music, attempt to new organizaton... overall approach

It's not about permission to play some sounds over some chords... it's about how to organize realtions between chords, or how to explain their relations being in a new musical reality...

Scale here to me is a tool to expand the chord (which is vertical) horizontally - to make it interconnect with next and previous chords etc.

destinytot · 01-17-2016, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Who the f-ck wants to analyze them? I want to play them.

Let me be first to say that I feel that way, too.

But I've begun learning some Soul/R'n'B songs that I really don't want to half-guess, and CST explains their (less predictable) changes really well.

And I love the term 'modal interchange' for what it makes possible.

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Come on, Jeff - you're serious about playing this as a solo guitar work? Huh, ok... Let me know when you put the recording up.

Lovely tune, Jeff, but don't try to tell me this was not played off of charts written out as notation. Why in the world would you dare try to play this as a solo guitarist? Unless you like an audience of one or two...

I have a copy of the original handwritten Shorter chart somewhere. Let me find it for you Jay. See what the big boys did.

**christianm77** · 01-17-2016, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, your question suggests CST doesn't help the ear. I'd call that an assumption.

I think you are reading something into the question that isn't there.

You seem to believe I hold an opinion one way or the other. In fact, I used to, but now I am not so sure.

What value specifically does CST hold that couldn't be developed in other ways? A completely ear based non analytical approach for example?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 01-17-2016, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Matt - I am perfectly conversant with music through the Forties and beyond into the Bebop era. But music like Wayne Shorter's Nefertiti, while gorgeous, does not translate well to solo guitar.

Yeah. like I said...

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

I think, more than that, you want to TALK about playing them, but that's cool too.

Originally Posted by targuit

I'm going to record Laura this afternoon. Using my personal transcription. Guitar and vocal. Now that is doable as a solo piece. Try singing Nefertiti...

yeah...But who was it that said the following? .....

Originally Posted by targuit

Who the f-ck wants to analyze them? I want to play them.

You do more abstract talking ABOUT music on this forum than almost anyone else, and most of it is mocking other's talking about music in abstraction...

You're all about playing. right?

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 06:04 PM

See, you're assuming I'm suggesting CST offers something other methods do not...

It's not better/worse, just a different lens.

**christianm77** · 01-17-2016, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

See, you're assuming I'm suggesting CST offers something other methods do not...

It's not better/worse, just a different lens.

Yes I suppose I am. From some commenters you do get the impression that (either) CST is the worst thing ever - or - CST is vitally important to be able to play postbop. (Or both - postbop is the worst thing ever haha)

I think life is to short to argue about it, but I do try to work out ways of practicing that are most time effective. I suspect that being able to represent pitches accurately by ear (both inner and outer) in any context on my instrument would make a lot of those things irrelevant.

However, it also seems that formal ear training has a degree of analysis built in, too. For example, Irez87 in using Bruce Arnold's approach is useing the fixed key centre thing and identifying all pitches based on that. But you could also identify pitches based on the root of the chord. Both are forms of analysis. You can of course get more specific. But the basic split is between the global mindset and the local mindset harmonically. I tend to identify CST with a more local mindset, but I'm sure that's incomplete to some extent.

Probably one should develop both.

I do think there are approaches that may be more or less effective. The problem is it's very hard to work out which are which.

I also feel that CST has had a knock on effect on the way modern/contemporary jazz sounds. Most jazz musicians have studied CST, so this comes across in their compositions. It's present in my compositions, for example. My music is much more modal/non-functional than anything I regularly play in other groups... So I find myself requiring CST to play my own music.

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 06:16 PM

Matt - if you have a chart for Nefertiti well you can send me an e-mail. It is a lovely song. The horn parts and the piano are not especially challenging so much as the arrangement. I don't know whether the parts were actually scored. For some reason I was not there at the session. Maybe because I was around ten or whatever.

I don't see anyone volunteering any 'analysis' of the tune. Guess it is up to you, Matt....

**jazzguy100** · 01-17-2016, 06:25 PM

Abma7-Dbma7-G7b5-C7b9-Cb-Bb-7-Ama7-Eb7#11-Ema7-Amin-Bbmin-Ema7-E-11-Eb7-Dma-A7

Here's the chords. go

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 06:25 PM

Jazz is about playing. I mean one needs to be able to improvise, which means you analyze the song right there.

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 06:26 PM

Requiring CST? Why, Christian? Modal mojo?

**jazzguy100** · 01-17-2016, 06:28 PM

talking more than playing makes you a better talker than a player

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by jazzguy100

Abma7-Dbma7-G7b5-C7b9-Cb-Bb-7-Ama7-Eb7#11-Ema7-Amin-Bbmin-Ema7-E-11-Eb7-Dma-A7

Here's the chords. go

Jazzguy - Sorry, but the chords you suggest are not what is on the recording linked here.

The song appears to involve other tonal centers. I put your progression up as I listened and tried to play along. You need a chart man, but your chords are from Nowhere-ville, Big Daddy!

**christianm77** · 01-17-2016, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Requiring CST? Why, Christian? Modal mojo?

Because I haven't thought of a better way of doing it. If my ears were better perhaps I could just Brecker it... Until then I play my little chord scales...

This is a huge subject that I could write pages and pages about.

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Requiring CST? Why, Christian? Modal mojo?

What would be very refreshing to see more of around here, not just you Jay, -- would be to see a less challenging attitude, more interest and willingness to learn things one doesn't know. Rather than putting those things down, to admit ignorance and question in less invalidating ways. Question to learn and not challenge, which only really shows intimidation. Yo know, good manners.

My opinion.

**christianm77** · 01-17-2016, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

What would be very refreshing to see more of around here, not just you Jay, -- would be to see a less challenging attitude, more interest and willingness to learn things one doesn't know. Rather than putting those things down, to admit ignorance and question in less invalidating ways. Question to learn and not challenge, which only really shows intimidation. Yo know, good manners.

My opinion.

I actually thought that was a thought provoking question. Why CST? Yes why?

Because that's how I learned to play non functional harmony, that's why... What does that mean?

I actually think I've learned a lot from these forums, if only not to let internet randoms get on my nerves :-) But also hopefully to be a little more open and less set in my ways...

In any case, you have to get on with what you've got at some point. You can't spend your life questioning if you want to make music, although perhaps you can put the questioning into your music... Faroutman.....

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 06:46 PM

The first full measure to me sounds like the tonal center start with . First chords:

Abdim7 with the high G note (#7?) - Bbm9(13) - Abm9(13 .... the first notes of the melody : c - b - a#.

The second and third chords could be some variant of Eb7(6 )/Bb and Db7(6)/Ab
I see you got the progression off the Jazz Advice web site. I like them and they put up the chord progression you copied. Only problem, it does not work. Remarkable.

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 06:48 PM

Google the song Nefertiti Wayne Shorter and that Jazz Advice link pops up. Go to the page. Now bring up YT or the link Jeff and I put up. Hit play. Tell me those are the accurate chord tonal centers to use this term.

No way in hell.... Henry, you are a seasoned pro. Check the link, the progression, the melody, the first few measures or so ....and then tell me I am right or I am wrong. I'd say the first part is centered around Bbmin tonality dropping a second interval to Abmin tonality.

Two of the first three chords I note here sound the 13th as well after the first chord -. First chords:

Abdim7 with the high G note (#7?) - Bbm9(13) - Abm9(13 .... the first notes of the melody : c - b - a#.

The second and third chords could be some variant of Eb7(6 )/Bb and Db7(6)/Ab
Jeff, you check it out, too. I am appealing to a Higher Power....

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 06:50 PM

Chief criticisms - Chord Scale Theory-nefertiti-jpg

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Please check the recording linked, Henry. Tell me I am wrong....if you can. First chords:

Abdim7 with the high G note (#7?) - Bbm9(13) - Abm9(13 .... the first notes of the melody : c - b - a#.

The second and third chords could be some variant of Eb7(6 )/Bb and Db7(6)/Ab

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 07:00 PM

I'm sorry. Driving around with my wife looking for houses. I can't right now. But I've played this song many times and this is my chart. I've played it with very astute jazz musicians. Nobody questioned or inferred corrections, something THIS group of musicians will ALWAYS do.

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 07:01 PM

Do you mean Miles' recording? That's the one the chart comes from.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 07:12 PM

Ok, gave the head a quick run down....half off a chart (new real book) with a few ear things I liked. Definitely going to go further with this one!

henry, I'd love to see that chart if you ever run across it. It would help me get inside the players a bit more...I think her i.e. Has said this is his favorite tune....its pretty damn wonderful.