Chief criticisms - Chord Scale Theory

**mrcee** · 01-18-2016, 12:05 AM

There's a Nefertiti chart on pg. 317 of the Real Book edition 5. My copies close to 30 years old.

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by jbyork

Love it, and think it's what the forum should be about: more playing . . . less typing.

I agree. But without more support and validation from forum members it's just a losing proposition.

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

Please check the recording linked, Henry. Tell me I am wrong....if you can. First chords:

Abdim7 with the high G note (#7?) - Bbm9(13) - Abm9(13 .... the first notes of the melody : c - b - a#.

The second and third chords could be some variant of Eb7(6 )/Bb and Db7(6)/Ab

Jay

The first chord is Ab maj7 #11 not Abdim. Shorter used the maj #11 sound a lot. He didn't use diminished chords much.

On guitar easiest to play it as:

4x553x

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 04:38 AM

OK! So a couple of things. First, nice playing, Jeff! You play well, but the material is too abstract to stand as solo guitar. Not to say that is the criteria, just that is comes off as bebop noodling because it is meant for an ensemble, imo.

Secondly, as Herbie noted in the interview, the changes written in the Real Book or whatever do NOT correspond to what he suggests was played from the "real score". The RBook score does not even have the pickup bar chord. And I think the chords are not 'named' properly. As for the roots for the voicings being clear (Jeff) in the recording in terms of corresponding to the misnamed chords (imo), Herbie says "no, that's not right..." regarding the RBook score by comparison with the "real" score. And from my limited perusal of the first measures of the video on YT, he and I are correct.

This was my cursory analysis trying to listen briefly to the recording. The pickup bar chord that I hear and clearly is on the recording is not even notated.

Abdim7 with the high G note (#7?) - Bbm9(13) - Abm9(13 .... the first notes of the melody : c - b - a#.

The second and third chords could be some variant of Eb7(6 )/Bb and Db7(6)/Ab
Jeff, you check it out, too. I am appealing to a Higher Power.... "

So the 'second and third' chords above are to be considered the "first" measure of the RBook lead sheet, which is incorrect to my hearing. For example I suggested that the Bbm9 could be an Eb7(6)/Bb. I personally don't hear the Abmaj tonality and the Bb bass note seems there to me. Again, I don't have the tools to hear and analyze the dense chords. But if the second copy of the "real" score is what is on that interview website, then I still disagree with the assertion that the musicians played what was written. It seems to me that the sound they were messing with as Herbie points out was the combination of the m9 and 13ths.

These are complex and compound voicings that can be labeled in different ways but I disagree with even that second supposed "real" chart.

But I'm still waiting for our seasoned "pros" to opine on this issue. One thing is clear in the interview - Herbie says the RBook chart is wrong. I agree.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 04:51 AM

Graham - the first chord in the pickup bar on the recording is not in the Real Book score nor in Shorter's score. See my post above.

I try to hear that major tonality as Abmaj7 as you point out, but I hear a Db rather than a D. Perhaps I'm wrong, but even Herbie says the Real Book score is incorrect in the interview. And I do not agree with the labeling of the chords even in Shorter's score. That is open to how you interpret the chords in terms of roots and extensions.

Lifted from the interview -

"....All the chord symbols of this score are based on a triad, so I can’t say that’s sufficient. There was a voicing in “Nefertiti” from the very beginning.The first chord is like this (please see the score below). This is the voicing that Wayne wrote. (Herbie continues playing the piano.) There are other ways to play it,but not with these chords on this score. I can’t see an AbM7 at bar1? That’s not right. First of all, there isn’t a 5th.Basically it’s like this, Ab, D, G and C.You can add other sounds when you have 3 or 4 choruses, but at the beginning it got to be this voicing. When this voicing reaches to Bar 2, it moves like this (from Ab-D-G-C to Ab-Db-Gb-Bb). Do you understand how it moved? It’s perfect voiceleading (inner voice movement) Just perfect!!!--Is Db the bass note in Bar 2?...."

I cannot post the rest of the quote because for some reason the rest of Herbie's corrections of that Real Book score comes out as a gigantic font (no idea why). But clearly the RB score is not consistent with Herbie's perception.

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 06:50 AM

Right, Herbie said bar 1 chord is:

Originally Posted by targuit

Basically it’s like this, Ab, D, G and C.

Which is the chord I gave you.

4x553x

That is: Ab, G, C , D. Slightly different note order to make it playable on the guitar. So it's basically Ab major 7 #11. Certainly not Ab diminished.

**jazzguy100** · 01-18-2016, 06:57 AM

hey Who the fuck wants to analyze them? I want to play them. but I don't want to play this tune because the harmony isn't conventional and isn't friendly for solo chord melody jazz guitar, despite what Jeff did. those weren't the real voicings that wayne shorter hand wrote therefore the tune shall remain unplayable. Now I must go onto Sibelius and finish my solo guitar arrangement for my romance which starts with Abdimma7. I know, I studied classical guitar for 4 years when I was 12 years old therefore I am a master of jazz harmony and I will spread my knowledge throughout the jazz guitar forum.

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Right, Herbie said bar 1 chord is:

Which is the chord I gave you.

4x553x

That is: Ab, G, C , D. Slightly different note order to make it playable on the guitar. So it's basically Ab major 7 #11. Certainly not Ab diminished.

It isn't always easy to figure out what's going on on these Miles records. Sometimes Ron Carter wasn't very loud in the mix, and in any case he wasn't necessarily playing the root, then you've got Herbie playing very ambiguous-sounding chords above that. I don't think I really paid much attention to any pickup bars when I listened to the youtube clip this morning, I took it from where the melody starts on C.

I've never really studied this tune before, so I'll go through the Herbie interview when I get time, as it looks interesting. I've got at least 3 charts for this tune (Old RB, Herman Leonard RB, Ireal book app) so it'll be interesting to compare them with what Herbie says is going on.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-18-2016, 10:12 AM

Goodness, I fell asleep last night and a lot was going on here....where to begin?

thanks so much Henry and others for the nice comments on my playing. I think this stuff does hold up as solo guitar, it's just not dinner music. This is the music I want to make, not fluff. It's certainly not "bebop noodling" to my ear. It's about as far from bebop as you can get...

as for the chords, I actually go for herbies exact chord at the beginning, but I flub it and put in an open b, I think...sounded cool, so I went with it. I'll be eagerly going through the rest of the voicing support herbie talks about in that interview today...great stuff.

its important to remember that we're talking about jazz...things are fluid...the tune was written for this session, but not every pass through the melody...herbie is doing plenty of improvising on the form as the horns make their passes at that haunting melody.

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

its important to remember that we're talking about jazz...things are fluid...the tune was written for this session, but not every pass through the melody...herbie is doing plenty of improvising on the form as the horns make their passes at that haunting melody.

And of course this tune was deliberately played in an unusual way - i.e. the horns repeat the same melody all the way through, while the rhythm section do all the improvising and 'creative disruption' behind them. So the chords are not exactly 'fixed in stone', given this method.

**JonR** · 01-18-2016, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's all good! I gotta get the boys to sleep...all they wanna hear me play is the batman theme, you've got a friend in me from toy story (and I have to sing like randy newman) and because my kids are weird, they love Paul Butterfield s "shake your moneymaker."

My 4 year old told his preschool teacher that was his favorite song. We got a phone call.

I hope it was to book you to go and perform it for the school...

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 11:50 AM

Graham - in the recording on YT from the original recording there is a pickup bar which is not notated in the Real Book or on the presumptive Wayne Shorter lead sheet. So when I analyzed the opening chords and few measures, I included the pickup bar which sounds to me like an Abdim7 with a G note or #7. That would sound a Db rather than the D natural you hear. In the first full measure I don't hear Ab anything but rather the chords I listed. Others may disagree.

There is also a great inconsistency even in the interview. At one point Herbie says that Wayne simply wrote out the voicings in standard notation and that the Real Book version was 'wrong'. Yet in the interview they print out the presumptive original lead sheet but with chords written out as "Bbm7" for example. It is with those chord designations that I also disagree, though interpreting dense chords without clear roots is hard.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-18-2016, 12:10 PM

You're getting a little hung up on this "pick up" bar...really just a cymbal splash and Hancock anticipates the first beat...if you play the cluster he suggests and hear a low Ab on the bottom, it's pretty clear.

Not sure how you can't hear Ab anything as the first chord, Carters bass note is very clear.

It's an Abmaj7#11. Herbie said Abmaj7 was wrong, as the interviewer suggested. I've seen a few charts, including the new real book, in which the chord is spelled "correctly." That gets you in the ballpark...if you want exact voicings, you gotta use your ears...

As for your opinion, that's fine. But "bebop noodling?" Do you even know what bebop is and sounds like?

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Graham - in the recording on YT from the original recording there is a pickup bar which is not notated in the Real Book or on the presumptive Wayne Shorter lead sheet. So when I analyzed the opening chords and few measures, I included the pickup bar which sounds to me like an Abdim7 with a G note or #7. That would sound a Db rather than the D natural you hear. In the first full measure I don't hear Ab anything but rather the chords I listed. Others may disagree.

There is also a great inconsistency even in the interview. At one point Herbie says that Wayne simply wrote out the voicings in standard notation and that the Real Book version was 'wrong'. Yet in the interview they print out the presumptive original lead sheet but with chords written out as "Bbm7" for example. It is with those chord designations that I also disagree, though interpreting dense chords without clear roots is hard. But enough about this crap.

It would be nice if just one of our 'experts' would comment on the fact that my assertion as to the error in the RealBook version was right on the money as per Hancock's commentary. And btw even he was not terribly sure. Voicings on paper are one thing - what gets played is another and the interpretation of that is yet a third view.

OK I realise now you were talking about the pickup bar, that caused some confusion. I'll check that out tonight.

I thought the music printed was from the 'New Real Book', that's what it says under it. No-one has got Wayne's original lead sheet any more I don't think. I thought Herbie was recalling the voicings from memory, saying where they departed from that New Real Book sheet. At least that's how I interpreted the interview.

By the way it seemed to me (on a quick read through) that many of Herbie's changes correspond quite well with Henry's sheet, only a few differences.

Anyway I am going to analyse this tune and formulate my own definitive set of chord changes, if possible!

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 12:19 PM

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm listening to it now, but I'm driving - not at this minute. Getting gas. The first chord you call the pickup is either on ONE or it's just an anticipation of the first chord, which is AbMaj7+11.

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 12:23 PM

I mean unless this YouTube version is done strange Miles recording I've not yet heard.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 12:28 PM

Sorry, Jeff, bebop noodling was the wrong term. Miles Davis/ Wayne Shorter heartfelt jazz afficianado reflections sound better? Look, you play well, but a piece in that post-bop modal style (better?) or whatever just does not work as a solo guitar thing in my opinion. Those last three words are important - OPINION.

I like Wayne Shorter and I enjoyed his playing with Weather Report and Miles Davis. But it is hard to put that type of music into a solo guitar piece. Why? Because it lacks the functional harmonic base that makes a melody and progression memorable to "the lowly common folk" who would like you to "play Misty for me". But if you want to wrestle with ambiguous polychord stacks in that post-Bop style, be my guest and more power to you. I 'm sure you'll pack the venue.

A cymbal splash for the pickup bar? Funny, I hear a piano at the least...and the root note of the PICKUP IS an Ab. An Abdim7 to my ears with a very clear high G note. Perhaps the D note is a natural rather that the Db that I hear - the pickup chord that no else hears that is clear as day. Then the segue in the first real full measure does NOT sound like an Ab root but as I indicated.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 12:35 PM

Henry - Do me one small favor - when you have a quiet moment with guitar or piano nearby, just listen to the first several measures and notate what you think is happening harmonically on the recording. There is a pickup bar played at least by the piano, followed by the chords that are interpreted one way by me and another by the Real Book, which Herbie clearly said was WRONG.

This is a minor point, not important and not worth worrying about Too many words expended already. But you could do me the courtesy to listen in a quiet moment and give me your harmonic analysis. If Herbie says the Real Book is wrong, I am in agreement with him. You know it is too bad that the original standard notation of the voicings as written by Shorter is not available.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-18-2016, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Sorry, Jeff, bebop noodling was the wrong term. Miles Davis/ Wayne Shorter heartfelt jazz afficianado reflections sound better? Look, you play well, but a piece in that post-bop modal style (better?) or whatever just does not work as a solo guitar thing in my opinion. Those last three words are important - OPINION.

I like Wayne Shorter and I enjoyed his playing with Weather Report and Miles Davis. But it is hard to put that type of music into a solo guitar piece. Why? Because it lacks the functional harmonic base that makes a melody and progression memorable to "the lowly common folk" who would like you to "play Misty for me". But if you want to wrestle with ambiguous polychord stacks in that post-Bop style, be my guest and more power to you. I 'm sure you'll pack the venue.

A cymbal splash for the pickup bar? Funny, I hear a piano at the least...

A cymbal splash and herbie anticipates the first bar by playing that note cluster in question...you're getting so worked up you're not even reading my posts.

As for packing venues, who cares really? I said this is the music I want to play, not the music that will get me gigs at the local steakhouse.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 01:00 PM

I do you read your posts - you apparently struggle reading mine with comprehension. One simple question, Jeff - since we started this discussion on Nefertiti and the recording linked, have you sat down guitar in hand and listened to the opening bars carefully? And do you realize that Herbie Hancock - not me - said the changes as written in the Real Book version were wrong? I assume you read the interview. Can we agree that he did in fact say that? I actually put that in one of my posts. I would appreciate if you would respond directly to those two questions. Yes or no.

Anyway, I like your playing, Jeff. You are entitled to play whatever you like. But I just don't see the clamor by the public for that type of solo guitar playing, however lovely. That is an OPINION. It is not a reflection on the value of the music or your playing.

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 01:08 PM

I DID notate what I heard. There's no way I hear an Abdim7. Not even close. I posted the chart of what I heard. It's not a pick up bar. Cymbals and then Herbie plays an AbMaj7+11 chord before Shorter slides in with the sexy, drunken melody. The chord is on one. The cymbals anticipate. The melody is on the AND of 2.

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Herbie Hancock - not me - said the changes as written in the Real Book version were wrong

I doubt this is news to anybody here, it's kind of stating the obvious. Wayne Shorter's tunes from this period are well-known for having rather enigmatic chord changes for which every fakebook seems to have a different version. As Herbie says in the interview, Wayne didn't give any chord symbols in this case, just some notation. I suspect he wanted to keep it looser than laying down specific chord voicings. And who knows where his original lead sheet went. So everyone's had to try and figure it out.

Look at all the different opinions/versions on the turnaround on 'Footprints', for example. Then listen to the recording and it's clear that Miles' group had a very free interpretation of all this stuff anyway.

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I DID notate what I heard. There's no way I hear an Abdim7. Not even close. I posted the chart of what I heard. It's not a pick up bar. Cymbals and then Herbie plays an AbMaj7+11 chord before Shorter slides in with the sexy, drunken melody. The chord is on one. The cymbals anticipate. The melody is on the AND of 2.

Well that explains why I didn't hear a 'pickup bar' this morning! No wonder I didn't understand what Jay was on about.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm listening to it now, but I'm driving - not at this minute. Getting gas. The first chord you call the pickup is either on ONE or it's just an anticipation of the first chord, which is AbMaj7+11.

Well then, apparently you are in disagreement with Hancock.

"..This is the voicing that Wayne wrote. (Herbie continues playing the piano.) There are other ways to play it,but not with these chords on this score. I can’t see an AbM7 at bar1? That’s not right. First of all, there isn’t a 5th.Basically it’s like this, Ab, D, G and C.You can add other sounds when you have 3 or 4 choruses..."

I can't see an Abmaj7 at bar 1 - Herbie's words, Henry.