Chief criticisms - Chord Scale Theory

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 01:30 PM

Ah - the notes you, or Herbie spelled, form an AbMaj7+11. Ab (root), D (b5 or +11), G (Maj7) C (3rd). What am I missing? Or what are you missing.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 01:33 PM

Ok, I see what you mean - I thought there was a pickup bar at the beginning after the cymbal splash. But I hear the D in that chord as a Db rather than natural. Actually when I kept trying to hear the beginning of the tune, I did not hear the cymbal splash and thought the Ab chord was a pickup bar. Now I see what you mean, but it does not change what Herbie said. You did read that, right Jeff? And you read that as well, correct Henry?

Anyway, I was incorrect.

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 01:36 PM

I haven't read what Herbie said. I have found sometimes guys, even the artist, mis-remember or have a different approach than I would. Its always great getting their perspective but it doesn't always invalidate what you have done. The ear rules. The ear rules. If you hear it as an Abdim custard, cool. Goodluck with it.

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Well then, apparently you are in disagreement with Hancock.

"..This is the voicing that Wayne wrote. (Herbie continues playing the piano.) There are other ways to play it,but not with these chords on this score. I can’t see an AbM7 at bar1? That’s not right. First of all, there isn’t a 5th.Basically it’s like this, Ab, D, G and C.You can add other sounds when you have 3 or 4 choruses..."

I can't see an Abmaj7 at bar 1 - Herbie's words, Henry.

Henry's chart doesn't say Abmaj7. It says Abmaj7#11 which is quite different.

I think Herbie meant it's not right to just call it 'Abmaj7', because this would imply a 5th in it, but it can't have a 5th as that would clash with the D. So then he gave the actual notes - Ab, D , G , C. Which is basically an Abmaj7#11, like everyone keeps saying.

One thing the rest of us can agree on - it sure as hell isn't Ab diminished. Even Herbie has helpfully cleared that up for us, by spelling the notes out.

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 01:51 PM

Who knew you could have so much fun arguing about one chord.

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Who knew you could have so much fun arguing about one chord.

You call this fun?

**grahambop** · 01-18-2016, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

You call this fun?

Only about 15 more chords to go. Should keep us going for 2 weeks.

**Tag101** · 01-18-2016, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Ok, gave the head a quick run down....half off a chart (new real book) with a few ear things I liked. Definitely going to go further with this one!

henry, I'd love to see that chart if you ever run across it. It would help me get inside the players a bit more...I think her i.e. Has said this is his favorite tune....its pretty damn wonderful.

Nice.

**Tag101** · 01-18-2016, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by JonR

There's a lot of modal jazz where that's not the case. Arguably, the whole point of modal harmony (in its original concept) is to avoid any sense of pulling to a next chord. That was the idea behind using quartal voicings.
Naturally, that doesn't mean that players can't insert some kind of arpeggio or chromaticism to create a leading sound.
Neither does it mean the melodies can't have that sense of leading, even when the chords don't.
Really? I don't hear that at all. I mean, vamping on a dim is fine, but "tonic"?
A dim chord is by definition unstable, which - strictly speaking - rules out any tonic function.
If the dim chord is "tonic", then what kind of chord is going to be "dominant" in relation to it?

The first part we are more or less agreeing on. I am saying the rules are the same, and they are. If you want to just stay on the Tonic chord, thats fine. Its a tonic sound. The second part is just because the harmonic area is unstable, does not mean its not the tonic area of that piece. Others have pointed out how this can be, and again, a one chord vamp on a diminishes chord, I would call the chord the tonic area or chord. You can add tension many other ways. (move it up or down a half step for a short period for instance) Not sure you would call that a dominant, but it does create pull back to the original chord. In that example, I would call the other chord dominant. This may be stretching the strict definition of the terms, but I feel it still fits.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 02:50 PM

I believe Herbie was referring NOT to HENRY's chart but to the chart in the downloaded INTERVIEW with Herbie which I will relink below. Did you read the interview?

Anyway, my opinion is that the accepted Real Book chords are not as accurate. That opinion appeared to be shared by Herbie Hancock in that interview which I will re-link, in which there are two charts - a Real Book chart which Herbie says is incorrect and SECOND chart that follows, which Herbie says represents the actual music as played. NOTE:

- Herbie says that the changes in the RB chart were incorrect and that the first chord was not an Abmaj7 as depicted in Chart 1.
- But in Chart 2 that follows, supposedly the "original" chart, above the notation are written chord symbols, which Herbie said were NOT present on the arrangement music sheets. Unless I am losing it, that is a contradiction.

In any case, no more angst over these issues. Last thing - on Chart 2 that first chord above the notation is written as Abma7b5 and the chords that follow are different from the RB Chart 1.

So I am not referring to Henry's chart but to the errant RB chart 1 and Herbie's purported Chart 2.

Again I presume everyone has read this link - word by word. It is a cool article. Enough of this pointless angst. Play the damn song anyway you like wherever you like.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...TDAseVdgWkyw9Q

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 02:55 PM

No one is insisting the RB chart is correct. Everyone I'm aware of agrees its wrong. In fact I don't know ANYBODY is insists the RB is correct in general.

And no I did not read the interview. I don't believe me reading it or not has any bearing on what the first chord is. I believe I actually have the Shorter chart in question anyway, or one of them.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

No one is insisting the RB chart is correct. Everyone I'm aware of agrees its wrong. In fact I don't know ANYBODY is insists the RB is correct in general.

And no I did not read the interview. I don't believe me reading it or not has any bearing on what the first chord is. I believe I actually have the Shorter chart in question anyway, or one of them.

Unbelieveable! That is the nub of the issues I thought we were discussing, apart from whether that first chord is correct as written above the notation.

Henry - So now you don't read interviews relating to Herbie's experience recording the song as to the relevant issues in question? Ugghhh...ok. Sorry that I didn't hear the cymbal crash and thought there was a pickup bar.

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 03:07 PM

But I didn't listen to the recording....

Sorry, but I could not resist.

The Herbie Hancock Interview on “Nefertiti”“ When Wayne brought this song, there were no chord symbols. All of us were discovering the real song.”

You really should read the interview.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...12064104,d.cWw

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Henry's chart doesn't say Abmaj7. It says Abmaj7#11 which is quite different.

I think Herbie meant it's not right to just call it 'Abmaj7', because this would imply a 5th in it, but it can't have a 5th as that would clash with the D. So then he gave the actual notes - Ab, D , G , C. Which is basically an Abmaj7#11, like everyone keeps saying.

One thing the rest of us can agree on - it sure as hell isn't Ab diminished. Even Herbie has helpfully cleared that up for us, by spelling the notes out.

Yeah. But I was not talking about Henry's chart but rather about HERBIE HANCOCK'S recollection about the recording and about the accuracy of the REAL BOOKS' chart 1.

Henry and most everyone here apparently but me seem to feel that the opening chord is an Abma7#11.
I hear a Db rather than a D natural. I also hear or think I hear a high G in that opening chord atop an Abdim7. I may be wrong. But pay attention to the chords that follow in the supposedly "correct" chart that originally was only standard notation according to Herbie - they seem to me to differ radically from the RB. Maybe I'm wrong, Herbie's cannot actually remember or ...who give a flying...duck???

**jazzguy100** · 01-18-2016, 03:38 PM

alright, go to the piano and play an Abdimma7 and really get familiar with the sound. That G triad over Ab is very distinct and It would be recognised easily if it was. then go back to the recording and listen. No minor 3rd equals no dimished. Herbie has already told us what he played, Ab ma7#11 omit 5th. As to why you hear Db, well it's not there. If he was, it would sound like a Db ma7#11 without the 3rd. The Db kills the whole lydian vibe. I don't know how you could hear a dim chord without the tritone. As for the real book chart, it's an aproximation, meaning it goes for similar sounds as in the record which are close enough.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-18-2016, 04:05 PM

So listening again, I definitely hear the cluster herbie says...as the overall tonality.

The piano's highest note is G. The Sax plays the C, which the moves down to Bb over the second chord.

It's definitely Abmaj7#11 to the sus sound.

I'm going to try to bring this back to CST, but I need some time to type, can't do it from my phone...maybe tonight. Sorry for the detour caused by this tune...but it does fit the topic, I promise.

**jazzguy100** · 01-18-2016, 04:19 PM

you can't get onto chord scale if someone keeps trying to throw the changes out the window.

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Unbelieveable! That is the nub of the issues I thought we were discussing, apart from whether that first chord is correct as written above the notation.

Henry - So now you don't read interviews relating to Herbie's experience recording the song as to the relevant issues in question? Ugghhh...ok. Sorry that I didn't hear the cymbal crash and thought there was a pickup bar.

YOU were discussing. I know the tune very well. You derailed thread completely. I'll read the interview eventually, but I didn't NEED to to know what that chord was. I can hear the chord. This thread is not about this or even Nefertiti.

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Yeah. But I was not talking about Henry's chart but rather about HERBIE HANCOCK'S recollection about the recording and about the accuracy of the REAL BOOKS' chart 1.

Henry and most everyone here apparently but me seem to feel that the opening chord is an Abma7#11.
I hear a Db rather than a D natural. I also hear or think I hear a high G in that opening chord atop an Abdim7 because I hear D natural. I may be wrong. But pay attention to the chords that follow in the supposedly "correct" chart that originally was only standard notation according to Herbie - they seem to me to differ radically from the RB. Maybe I'm wrong, Herbie's cannot actually remember or ...who give a flying...duck???

I do not understand. G in the top would indicate a MAJOR 7th. That is correct. That is there. D natural is also there. Why is this so complicated????? And WHY do you keep referring to RB??????

**targuit** · 01-18-2016, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by jazzguy100

alright, go to the piano and play an Abdimma7 and really get familiar with the sound. That G triad over Ab is very distinct and It would be recognised easily if it was. then go back to the recording and listen. No minor 3rd equals no dimished. Herbie has already told us what he played, Ab ma7#11 omit 5th. As to why you hear Db, well it's not there. If he was, it would sound like a Db ma7#11 without the 3rd. The Db kills the whole lydian vibe. I don't know how you could hear a dim chord without the tritone. As for the real book chart, it's an aproximation, meaning it goes for similar sounds as in the record which are close enough.

Ok. So first, did you listen to the clip on YT linked here to Nefertiti and second, what do you think? A D natural or D flat? Not hard. What is your call?

As for the RB charts and accuracy, it was HERBIE HANCOCK, you know, the guy who played a little piano on the recording, who said they were inaccurate. Did you check out the interview? I'm not talking about one or two chords.

**jordanklemons** · 01-18-2016, 06:10 PM

I'm way late to this whole discussion, and maybe should steer clear as it looks like things are getting heated.
Ah well...

This is all probably way off topic. I didn't go back far enough to see how it got from CST to Nefertiti.

BUT

Jeff, great playing man. Always love when people share their ideas AND their playing.

This got me really curious to try and transcribe a chorus of Herbie's comping. Good lord, the dude is a beast. Working on him, I decided to focus first on Ron and see if I could make sense of at least the bass line. This is what I came up with. Please feel free to point out issues if you spot them. He's got some bizarre runs that were really difficult to pick out... very quick and so low pitched it's almost hard to hear what they are.

(The site doesn't seem to want to let me upload the png of the transcription right now. I'll try again later... but if you want to check out what I got for Ron, I attached the pdf that you should be able to download.)

As for Herbie. Man... that dude.
I've only gotten a few measures in. Tough voicings. And my ears are more accustomed to guitar voicings, so sometimes I miss a note or two in piano voicings when trying to pick them out.

But I'll say this about the 1st chord (in question). I am DEFINITELY hearing the D and G above middle C. I'm not sure that I hear the C note itself. That doesn't mean Herbie isn't using it later in the tune. It's also a little hard to tell if he's playing the Ab or not as Ron is... so it's tough for me to tell if Herbie is too. But it's in the bass. It's entirely possible Wayne had the 4 notes notated and Herbie wanted to keep the voicings thinner in the beginning to leave room for them to expand as the tune progressed. So he may just be playing the D and G. It's also totally possible that he's playing the Ab there too and I just don't hear it because Ron's Ab is covering it in my ear. And it's also possible that the C note is hiding in there and I'm just not hearing it.

What I don't hear are any B natural notes or Db notes.

**jordanklemons** · 01-18-2016, 06:25 PM

First mistake found. The E in bar 8 should have been an Eb.

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Ok. So first, did you listen to the clip on YT linked here to Nefertiti and second, what do you think? A D natural or D flat? Not hard. What is your call?

As for the RB charts and accuracy, it was HERBIE HANCOCK, you know, the guy who played a little piano on the recording, who said they were inaccurate. Did you check out the interview? I'm not talking about one or two chords.

I'm asking why you keep referring to the RB. Everyone KNOWS it's wrong. I never referred to RB. Why do you keep bringing it up?

**henryrobinett** · 01-18-2016, 06:43 PM

Cool Jordan. Yeah Herbie's a beast. I'll check the PDF out later. You know I think you can post if it's jpeg.

**jordanklemons** · 01-18-2016, 06:52 PM

Chief criticisms - Chord Scale Theory-nefertiti-ron-carter-transcription-jpg

Huh, how weird. I usually use png and it works. Wasn't working today, but the jpeg did.

Just a reminder, the E in bar 8 should be an Eb. Let me know if you guys spot any other mistakes. Going to slowly chip away at Herbie's part and would like to have the piano and bass lines up together.