Chief criticisms - Chord Scale Theory

**Robertkoa** · 01-17-2016, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by JonR

There's a lot of modal jazz where that's not the case. Arguably, the whole point of modal harmony (in its original concept) is to avoid any sense of pulling to a next chord. That was the idea behind using quartal voicings.
Naturally, that doesn't mean that players can't insert some kind of arpeggio or chromaticism to create a leading sound.
Neither does it mean the melodies can't have that sense of leading, even when the chords don't.
Really? I don't hear that at all. I mean, vamping on a dim is fine, but "tonic"?
A dim chord is by definition unstable, which - strictly speaking - rules out any tonic function.
If the dim chord is "tonic", then what kind of chord is going to be "dominant" in relation to it?

What he means is play a Diminished Chord and then another one a Minor 3rd up put the bassline from Foxy Lady under it for 8 Bars and you can solo over it and " tonicize" even a Dim7 for a few bars ( might not be a big hit, lol but it can be a *temporary tonic in some ways for a short time in Use).
* Maybe a better term would be NOT
Temporary Tonic but Harmonic Region..

So you can have a Diminished 7th Harmonic Region to Solo Over and the Solo lines move toward and rest upon the Dim7 Chord Tones just as they do
when soloing on a Minor 7th Chord.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

CST to me appears to be a certified pool of approved notes for use over a particular chord. Given that the chord tonic, 3rd, 5th and 7th are intrinsic to the chord - that constitutes a "duh". Add in the 9th, 11th, and 13ths plus relative flats and sharps for all the notes "permitted" and you don't have much left to "get approved" (1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13 -permitted). That leaves the 2nd. So overwhelming.

Waste of time.

For your needs perhaps.

Now, go learn a Wayne Shorter tune.

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

For your needs perhaps.

Now, go learn a Wayne Shorter tune.

Which one? Does it come with notation which I read fluently or do I need to 'figure it out' myself? I'm so scared....

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 04:40 PM

What is that you don't get about twelve notes in an octave? Jeff, are they playing notes that are somehow not in the range of normal hearing? Come on!

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 04:42 PM

Or better yet, Jeff, if you've scored out a transcription, send it to me via e-mail. I'll check the song out. I used to love Wayne Shorter's recordings especially with Weather Report. I'm not such a faithful listener lately and it has to be on YT.

**christianm77** · 01-17-2016, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by JonR

There's a lot of modal jazz where that's not the case. Arguably, the whole point of modal harmony (in its original concept) is to avoid any sense of pulling to a next chord. That was the idea behind using quartal voicings.
Naturally, that doesn't mean that players can't insert some kind of arpeggio or chromaticism to create a leading sound.
Neither does it mean the melodies can't have that sense of leading, even when the chords don't.
Really? I don't hear that at all. I mean, vamping on a dim is fine, but "tonic"?
A dim chord is by definition unstable, which - strictly speaking - rules out any tonic function.
If the dim chord is "tonic", then what kind of chord is going to be "dominant" in relation to it?

Yeah I think it can. The first few bars of the bridge of Air Mail Special seems to have a static quality to my ears, for example.

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Or better yet, Jeff, if you've scored out a transcription, send it to me via e-mail. I'll check the song out. I used to love Wayne Shorter's recordings especially with Weather Report. I'm not such a faithful listener lately and it has to be on YT.

Why should Jeff or anyone send you a transcription? On a jazz forum why should anyone have to even SUGGEST you listen to a Shorter tune?? He is one of the greatest modern, post mid sixties composers in jazz. Why would you not know? Listening is easy. His music is ALL OVER YOUTUBE!!

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 04:58 PM

You're getting snippy and hard headed already man, relax.

Look, I've said it here 100 times...but people don't listen...

CST is for analysis....it's not a prescription of what to play.

Some tunes are going to throw chords at you that eschew function and look really complex on paper...but it's just shorthand for a harmonic environment...a pool of notes.

It's just something that exists to make life easier, occasionally...

Pick a tune, real book charts are all over the internet...fall, e.s.p., iris, whatever...there are different lenses you can look at things...

Trying to force fit CST over say, "aatya," yeah, unecessary complications...

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Why should Jeff or anyone send you a transcription? On a jazz forum why should anyone have to even SUGGEST you listen to a Shorter tune?? He is one of the greatest modern, post mid sixties composers in jazz. Why would you not know? Listening is easy. His music is ALL OVER YOUTUBE!!

Henry - Chill, bro'. Jeff was implying (NB) that CST was integral to the type of music composed by Wayne Shorter. Of course, CST is more the child of the post-bop era. But it is the same twelve notes in the scale! It does not defy gravity, nor wear an invisibility cloak!

I was teasing Jeff as he seems to be of the opinion that Shorter composes music by secret code! He suggested I attempt a Wayne Shorter piece. Well, it would have to be reasonably representable on guitar. But, just teasing him. I like Wayne Shorter. But I don't play any of his tunes. I think most lend themselves more to a larger ensemble than one, even with overdubbing.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 05:12 PM

Yeah, never said that.

Did say CST was helpful for analyzing these tunes. But I think every time I type that it comes out in swahili or something.

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 05:15 PM

Who the f-ck wants to analyze them? I want to play them.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 05:25 PM

If your ear is good enough to go in cold on say, "nefertiti," then congratulations.

For the rest of us mortals, it's nice to look at what a tune is all about before we dive in.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-17-2016, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Who the f-ck wants to analyze them? I want to play them.

Well, lots of people like to analyze things: works of fiction, poetry, social / economic changes, fashion, movies, music. If you have no interest in the analysis of jazz compositions and improvised performances, ignore it. Play whatever you like. No one here is trying to tell you what to play or how to think about jazz.

But several of us have grown tired of your periodic appearance in threads in which you have no interest and rather than just saying that once and moving along, you try to derail the conversation by pointing out that YOU think the subject at hand is a waste of time. Pity you don't see this irritating behavior as a waste of your time. Many of us see it as a waste of ours.

**christianm77** · 01-17-2016, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If your ear is good enough to go in cold on say, "nefertiti," then congratulations.

For the rest of us mortals, it's nice to look at what a tune is all about before we dive in.

That's a somewhat static way of viewing things. You could develop your ear to able to play things like Nefertiti without needing to analyse it.

There's a good Mick Goodrick exercise for just this - I think we were discussing it on another thread.

Perhaps the time that one could spend on learning CST could be better used doing this. Just a thought.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 05:33 PM

Sure you could. And should.

Heck, CST can be a way to help do just that.

Again, you're assuming CST says "play these notes over this chord," and that's it.

It's not a supplement for a well trained ear.

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 05:37 PM

I know nothing of CST particularly, but Nefertiti takes some thinking about, generally before diving in. Knowing what you're doing it planning to improvise and how, is always a good thing.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 01-17-2016, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Who the f-ck wants to analyze them? I want to play them.

I think, more than that, you want to TALK about playing them, but that's cool too.

**christianm77** · 01-17-2016, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Sure you could. And should.

Heck, CST can be a way to help do just that.

Again, you're assuming CST says "play these notes over this chord," and that's it.

It's not a supplement for a well trained ear.

I'm assuming nothing. I'm questioning.

You're kind of assuming that just because I ask a question, I might intrinsically hold one view or the other. In fact I am simply asking the question.

In fact, the more I learn, the less I have opinions one way or the other.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 05:42 PM

Well, your question suggests CST doesn't help the ear. I'd call that an assumption.

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 05:43 PM

First thing I do is listen. I assume you are referring to this cut with Miles. I think I have this in my album collection, but no functioning turntable.

Observation. Twelve tones. The harmony and structure is not conventional. However, I'm sure that the guys had charts written out. I can play what is written. Would I take the time to score this out as a transcription? Not for free surely unless I was playing in a group situation. But what I hear I can score.

You want me to play the piano part, horn part? Given that this is not conventional harmony it would not play as solo guitar. Is the harmony "other-worldly"? Of course not. And I am quite mortal.

For this type of music I would have to score out the parts with Transcribe. Not to slow it down. Just to make the job faster. Very lovely song. I like Wayne Shorter.

**henryrobinett** · 01-17-2016, 05:45 PM

For the life of me Jay, I don't know why you're on a jazz guitar forum.

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

I think, more than that, you want to TALK about playing them, but that's cool too.

Matt - I am perfectly conversant with music through the Forties and beyond into the Bebop era. But music like Wayne Shorter's Nefertiti, while gorgeous, does not translate well to solo guitar. One would need to score this stuff out with Transcribe to play with an ensemble, again just to make the job faster. Hard to play? Harder than playing Jerome Kern but absolutely doable.

I'm going to record Laura this afternoon. Using my personal transcription. Guitar and vocal. Now that is doable as a solo piece. Try singing Nefertiti...

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

For the life of me Jay, I don't know why you're on a jazz guitar forum.

To get a good laugh out of your posts, Henry! Good luck with your new CD!

**mr. beaumont** · 01-17-2016, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

First thing I do is listen. I assume you are referring to this cut with Miles. I think I have this in my album collection, but no functioning turntable.

Observation. Twelve tones. The harmony and structure is not conventional. However, I'm sure that the guys had charts written out. I can play what is written. Would I take the time to score this out as a transcription? Not for free surely unless I was playing in a group situation. But what I hear I can score.

You want me to play the piano part, horn part? Given that this is not conventional harmony it would not play as solo guitar. Is the harmony "other-worldly"? Of course not. And I am quite mortal.

For this type of music I would have to score out the parts with Transcribe. Not to slow it down. Just to make the job faster. Very lovely song. I like Wayne Shorter.

Why couldn't it play as solo guitar?

I'm not so concerned with what they played right now, although that is the place to start...but I'd like to know what YOU would play.

I picked Nefertiti, by the way, because all the improvisation on the original track is in the rhythm section...although it can be played more standard head/solos too...

**targuit** · 01-17-2016, 05:54 PM

Come on, Jeff - you're serious about playing this as a solo guitar work? Huh, ok... Let me know when you put the recording up.

Lovely tune, Jeff, but don't try to tell me this was not played off of charts written out as notation. Why in the world would you dare try to play this as a solo guitarist? Unless you like an audience of one or two...