My thoughts on jazz theory

[John A.]

nobody wants to talk about this but when I studied with Martino, it became obvious that he didn't know formal music theory. Which somewhat proves my point. IMO, he went off on tangents with the pointed star techniques. I thought he made things more complicated than they needed to be. .

For sure, at least in the videos I've watched. His way of talking about "theory" is very idiosyncratic and (IMO) adds layers of verbiage abstruseness that make him very hard to follow.

"Jazz" theory is simple but the sale of "jazz" theory has made things 10x more complicated.

It often strikes me that way, too.

Benson, Martino, Wes didn't know formal theory and yet, they played extremely complicated material. In one interview of John Coltrane, they asked him about McCoy Tyner's voicings. He wasn't sure of what Mccoy was doing which I found interesting.

But wasn't Coltrane much more versed in theory and analysis than those guys?

[kris]

I listened to the guys playing and thought he sounded pretty good. He just seems to have really conservative tastes like Wynton. I don't think disliking or not appreciating Shorter is a crime but dismissing his ability to play and the way he critiqued Shorter was over the top.

I have no idea why this young man did it.Perhaps this brought him infamous popularity.
I don't know how many saxophonists there are in US.

[jzucker]

For sure, at least in the videos I've watched. His way of talking about "theory" is very idiosyncratic and (IMO) adds layers of verbiage abstruseness that make him very hard to follow.


It often strikes me that way, too.


But wasn't Coltrane much more versed in theory and analysis than those guys?

he was, he actually studied music in college. But it's interesting that he didn't recognize what mccoy was doing because it wasn't taught in formal theory and wasn't something he had heard before. Mccoy just made that !@#$ up and nowadays it's a common part of jazz theory. Again, the "theory" changed to accommodate the players. Not the other way around.

[kris]

It seems to me that jazz theory is closely related to the practice of jazz.
Proof of this are the books written by David N. Baker.
f.ex.How to play Be-Bop vol 1-3...or "A Creative Approach to Practising JAZZ"

Interesting books are also written by Walt Weiskopf...A lot of useful knowledge.

[Mick-7]

I wanted to understand his explanations about W. Shorter. But unfortunately I didn't understand.

His opinion doesn't make sense because it's based on an irrational personal bias, he obviously doesn't know Wayne Shorter's music catalog. Shorter wasn't always Mr. Avante Garde, he started out as a fairly straight ahead bop player and evolved from there.

[kris]

His opinion doesn't make sense because it's based on an irrational personal bias, he obviously doesn't know Wayne Shorter's music catalog. Shorter wasn't always Mr. Avante Garde, he started out as a fairly straight ahead bop player and evolved from there.

Yes. There is a lot of his CD recordings on youtube.

[kris]

he was, he actually studied music in college. But it's interesting that he didn't recognize what mccoy was doing because it wasn't taught in formal theory and wasn't something he had heard before. Mccoy just made that !@#$ up and nowadays it's a common part of jazz theory. Again, the "theory" changed to accommodate the players. Not the other way around.

It seems to me that there is quite a lot of theoretical knowledge in this video.
A dozen or so years ago I made an exact transcription of the notes that John plays in this video.
Scofield's jazz theory in one hour from 1983.

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=kris;1462582]It seems to me that there is quite a lot of theoretical knowledge in this video.
A dozen or so years ago I made an exact transcription of the notes that John plays in this video.
Scofield's jazz theory in one hour from 1983.

I may have part of that transcription..The Diminished scale..it kept me busy for a year or two..

[kris]

[QUOTE=wolflen;1462678]

It seems to me that there is quite a lot of theoretical knowledge in this video.
A dozen or so years ago I made an exact transcription of the notes that John plays in this video.
Scofield's jazz theory in one hour from 1983.

I may have part of that transcription..The Diminished scale..it kept me busy for a year or two..

This hour-long video by Scofield is the essence of jazz theory.
But in order to understand it accurately, you need to get to know in detail the notes that John plays.
Scofield plays melodic lines in a very natural way.He is a brilliant improviser.
He shows it all in a very casual way.
The way of thinking and mastering the material thoroughly takes years of work.
Someone may think it's just an hour.The theory is easy, it's easy... maybe... But this is just an illusion.
A conscious jazz musician is able to put all this into practice correctly. And that's the point.
In 1983 this video was made and I saw John in Warsaw, and in the same year he played with Miles Davis.
In 1986, John played my guitar during a short jam session at a local jazz club – my legs were "bending".
Best
Kris

[pamosmusic]

His opinion doesn't make sense because it's based on an irrational personal bias, he obviously doesn't know Wayne Shorter's music catalog. Shorter wasn't always Mr. Avante Garde, he started out as a fairly straight ahead bop player and evolved from there.

He definitely does know.

Quite a smart guy. Top tier player on the scene at the time. Very very bad with his own PR, apparently.

[kris]

He definitely does know.

Quite a smart guy. Top tier player on the scene at the time. Very very bad with his own PR, apparently.

I'm curious... if this young man does not like and does not respect Shorter, has he ever played a composition written by Shorter?
According to many jazzmen, Shorter was a brilliant composer.
"Regarded as one of the greatest composers in jazz history, Wayne Shorter has written more than 200 pieces, dozens of which have become modern standards."

[djg]

I'm curious... if this young man does not like and does not respect Shorter, has he ever played a composition written by Shorter?
According to many jazzmen, Shorter was a brilliant composer.
"Regarded as one of the greatest composers in jazz history, Wayne Shorter has written more than 200 pieces, dozens of which have become modern standards."

why not let it go. it has been dicussed ad nauseum and the guy basically ruined his career. musicians say things and have opinions, it's always been that way.

it is the internet that fucks it up for everybody. i mean this shit is 13 years old. as if wayne shorter needed any defending from the foot soldiers.

[Mick-7]

why not let it go. it has been dicussed ad nauseum and the guy basically ruined his career. musicians say things and have opinions, it's always been that way.

it is the internet that fucks it up for everybody. i mean this shit is 13 years old. as if wayne shorter needed any defending from the foot soldiers.

Oh, I didn't even look at the date, it is ancient news, thought it was recent.

[kris]

why not let it go. it has been dicussed ad nauseum and the guy basically ruined his career. musicians say things and have opinions, it's always been that way.

it is the internet that fucks it up for everybody. i mean this shit is 13 years old. as if wayne shorter needed any defending from the foot soldiers.

+1
13 years is a long period of time.
Maybe this guy has changed his mind over the years.
I hope so.

[Strat-itis]

Mad at theory. It definitely seems like he knew theory, quite deeply. Maybe he didn't know everything when you studied with him. Not everyone knows everything.

[kris]

Mad at theory. It definitely seems like he knew theory, quite deeply. Maybe he didn't know everything when you studied with him. Not everyone knows everything.

This video is from 10 years ago.
You would have to ask Jack when he studied with Pat Martino.
To tell the truth, we learn jazz all our lives.

[ragman1]

They brought it up because they thought I'd said Liebman was noisy (which he definitely can be). Unfortunately I never said that, I said Liebman was a bit noisy for me, which is not the same thing.

He's a very good talker and a good teacher. But I don't like his playing (I've listened to quite a bit of it), I find it a bit noisy for me

Whereupon I was deluged with lots of examples of him playing softer stuff like ballads.

I was merely expressing a dislike of raucous music, that's all. That's a personal preference and a matter of taste. If other people like it, that's fine, it's up to them, I don't care.

It's the usual snobby jazz police attitude rearing its head. They seem to think that because they enjoy loud stuff there's something wrong with those who don't.

Mind you, we're not speaking Kris' first language here and he may have missed the difference between 'noisy' and 'noisy for me'. Unfortunately he becomes fanatic over this kind of thing and inflames others who just follow an argument without checking it out properly.

You know, there are plenty of people who don't like Coltrane. I'm surprised they're still alive!

It's all very childish, isn't it, and it's time we grew up.

[joe2758]

why not let it go. it has been dicussed ad nauseum and the guy basically ruined his career. musicians say things and have opinions, it's always been that way.

it is the internet that fucks it up for everybody. i mean this shit is 13 years old. as if wayne shorter needed any defending from the foot soldiers.

I don't give a shit about that guy, I was just citing it as a public example of how people will go after someone for being harsh in their criticism of a largely respected player that's all

[Hep To The Jive]

You know, there are plenty of people who don't like Coltrane. I'm surprised they're still alive!

hahaha maybe because they know better and keep quiet? I was assaulted for admitting not to like Jackie McLean, luckily there's plenty of Coltrane that I like that defused the situation, or I would be dead.

[joe2758]

hahaha maybe because they know better and keep quiet? I was assaulted for admitting not to like Jackie McLean, luckily there's plenty of Coltrane that I like that defused the situation, or I would be dead.

and that's when you were like "I better move to China"

[kris]

I don't give a shit about that guy, I was just citing it as a public example of how people will go after someone for being harsh in their criticism of a largely respected player that's all

These are sociological phenomena.

[Hep To The Jive]

and that's when you were like "I better move to China"

oh no, that actually took place in China haha, with a fellow laowai musician of course, Chinese folks are not aggressive like that.

[pamosmusic]

why not let it go. it has been dicussed ad nauseum and the guy basically ruined his career. musicians say things and have opinions, it's always been that way.

it is the internet that fucks it up for everybody. i mean this shit is 13 years old. as if wayne shorter needed any defending from the foot soldiers.

Dude it was so dramatic haha

This was also long enough ago that this was before anyone could really anticipate a blow up like that. Guy says dumb thing on internet. Guy flabbergasted when it turns out the internet cares for some reason.

[ragman1]

hahaha maybe because they know better and keep quiet? I was assaulted for admitting not to like Jackie McLean, luckily there's plenty of Coltrane that I like that defused the situation, or I would be dead.

I think it's incredible that jazz, simply a particular kind of music, has become like politics and religion, religion especially. Say anything against their blessed leader or their blasted prophet and they will, literally, burn, torture and kill you. It's insane, but then the world's like that.

it's all about wanting to be a big shot. By defending actual big shots by inference you enter the same league. It's a sickness.

[James W]

I think it's incredible that jazz, simply a particular kind of music, has become like politics and religion, religion especially. Say anything against their blessed leader or their blasted prophet and they will, literally, burn, torture and kill you. It's insane, but then the world's like that.

Who are these jazz fans burning and torturing and killing people? I don't think exaggerating for rhetorical effect is effective in proving your point, personally. What you mean is that people are passionate about music and these musicians, and feel inclined to defend them. That is not very insane at all.

I agree jazz can be like a religion, or music more broadly. I do like the mysticism and spirituality of particular sorts of jazz. This is a good thing. It just goes to show the depth of feeling and importance of this music. Listening to John Coltrane or certain records of Miles Davis can be like a religious experience. It is really that great.

it's all about wanting to be a big shot. By defending actual big shots by inference you enter the same league. It's a sickness.

I have no idea about how you came to this conclusion, which I think is totally false. I and many others do not feel passionate about this music because they want to be a big shot. You see, there is this thing where people love music and the musicians who make it, and feel inclined to defend it against people who do not understand it. The idea that I enter the same league of a great musician simply by loving their work and defending them is twee and risible. I think it's more a sickness what you are saying, which evinces total lack of understanding of what motivates music lovers.