My thoughts on jazz theory

[Mick-7]

It's interesting that Liebman gravitated to teaching much more than most well-known horn players, if they did at all. Both his parents were teachers, of course, and I'm sure that helped mould his views.

More like wanting to earn a living, which he could not do playing the avante-garde music he was playing.

[John A.]

Preface, I have taught jazz theory, improvisation and jazz guitar at the university level. I'm the author of the Sheets of Sound for Guitar series books. I'm well versed in traditional and jazz theory.
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Do you realize that theory, in particular -- western theory, is an after-the-fact analysis of composed music? We tend to think of theory as rules and formulas when it's simply a common language used to describe what someone else has done.

I don't entirely agree with this. "Theory" (at least as the word is often used) has a prescriptive element to it. It's not just an analysis of the past. It's also a map to how to make music in the idiom. Because jazz improvisation is a kind of composition within an idiom (granted a very diverse one) theory serves as a framework that informs how to execute the music. In that sense, I think "theory" is probably the wrong word, and something like "praxis" (as used in some other domains) is probably closer to what "jazz theory" actually is.

All that said, sure, it's a mistake to treat theory as a set of rigid and inviolate rules or to focus on it to the exclusion of other elements of musicianship and developing your own instrumental voice.

Of course, we are still taking after-the-fact analysis and attempting to generate rules and regulations about what is valid based on looking at things backwards.

Some people do, and it's a way of thinking that one finds a lot in online discussions. But I don't find the real-world musicians I talk to think about theory this way. Rather, they use it as a path to understanding what they hear and adapting it into their own playing.

Reality check -- You don't play by the rules. YOU MAKE THE RUlES. The rules will bend to follow what you played. If it sounds good, it *IS* good.

Sure, but you still have to know some principles (if not rules) in order to play with other people in a way that fits the idiom and overall vibe. .

With all that being said, can you play a b9 against a Maj7 chord? Answer, YES OF COURSE YOU CAN. Try taking a tune like "You stepped out of a dream" and for ever tonic, Try using an altered dominant tonality. Does it work? Yes, does it fit the rule books? Who cares!!!

IMO, it's "legal" to play literally any note over any chord as long as you do it intentionally and with the awareness of the effect it has (e.g., in terms of tension, dissonance, the pianist giving you the stink eye, etc.). Theory has value in helping you understand why playing something had an effect and a way to do it (or avoid it) again. But, agreed, it's not literally rules that you aren't allowed to break.

Let's stop trying to use western theory (baroque or otherwise) to govern what we can or cannot do in jazz.

Yes sir! On it!

Rules are like labels, jazz is not Mayonnaise.

Then what condiment is it?

I'll post some more articles like this in the future, perhaps taking these concepts further.

Theoretically, that should be interesting.

[kris]

It's interesting that Liebman gravitated to teaching much more than most well-known horn players, if they did at all. Both his parents were teachers, of course, and I'm sure that helped mould his views.

Jerry Bergonzi is an accomplished saxophonist and has written excellent books.

[kris]

More like wanting to earn a living, which he could not do playing the avante-garde music he was playing.

+1
In general, it is very difficult to make a living from jazz.
D.Liebman is no exception.

[John A.]

It's interesting that Liebman gravitated to teaching much more than most well-known horn players, if they did at all. Both his parents were teachers, of course, and I'm sure that helped mould his views.

If you think about how few full-time jazz horn faculty positions there are it's not actually surprising that most horn players aren't as involved in education as he is. There aren't anywhere near enough jobs for them. Regarding why he got into teaching, this is a great interview where he goes into it in considerable depth.

https://mads.si.edu/mads/id/NMAH-AC0...ave_Transcript.

[Cunamara]

One result that certain people seem to not only be surprised that people learn jazz without “theory” - or should I say knowing the names - but flat out call you a liar for saying it.

I'm reminded of a story, possibly apocryphal as many stories in jazz are, of somebody taking a lesson with George Benson. George demonstrated something and the student said, "oh, that's the blah-de-blah chord." George replied "is that what it's called?" He didn't know the nomenclature, even though he knew exactly how to use it.

Apropos of your earlier comment about dissertations being of more value to the author than the reader, I just read through a dissertation about Ed Bickert's guitar style. Well, I didn't read every page because it was something like 300 pages long! Much of the dissertation was a discussion of how difficult it is to notate jazz, such as the swing groove, the frequent micro-syncopations, etc., without making an unreadable mess of it. Lots of technical discussion about different notation systems and transcribing. When it got down to the actual transcription and analysis of Ed's playing, the conclusion was more or less "Ed Bickert's a great jazz guitarist, this stuff doesn't notate very well and it doesn't always fit within western music theory easily" (I am way oversimplifying and I hope not insulting the author, who clearly put 1000 hours or more of very detailed work into this. It was a huge effort). The parts actually about Ed (rather than the challenges of notating jazz in western music scoring) were very interesting reading and with interesting analysis, but I can't say that the end result was my being able to play better or more like Ed than before I read it. I hope the author got something more than a doctorate from all that work.

[Cunamara]

Yes Dorothy..G7 blues is NOT in the key of C..and theory cant explain it..

According to Ted Greene in one of the videos of his seminars, a G blues is in the key of G7. Because the dominant chord serves as the tonic, that's the key. It's not in C and it's not even G mixolydian (which would be in C). He considered that there were major, minor and dominant keys rather than just major and minor keys.

[mr. beaumont]

Songs in the key of blues.

Seriously though, blues is one of many musics that we can try to explain with the same theory we use for Mozart, but there needs to be some grains of salt taken along with it.

[Tal_175]

I’ve taught jazz guitar in the past to high-level, lifelong folk and rock players who had dabbled in jazz on and off. They called themselves “ear players.” I’m not sure whether their ears were actually better than mine (and not because I have exceptional ears), but what I consistently noticed was how slowly they acquired new information. They had their own way of learning, and everything had to be specific. They struggled to generalize or connect new ideas to what they already knew.
If I said something like, “Just flatten the fifths of these voicings you already know and you’ve got minor 7b5 chords,” they’d look puzzled. If I demonstrated a harmonic movement as a variation, they’d say, “Oh, that sounds nice.” But the moment I tried to describe the movement in a way they could apply elsewhere, it became very difficult for them to conceptualize.
Another example: I used to play with an upright bassist who had good ears and knew a ton of tunes. He only practiced melodies, and he could generate basslines by hearing the melody in his head. But if I asked him to walk using chord tones and passing notes in a more traditional style, he couldn’t do it on the fly.
I’m sure there are true “ear players” who can absorb new material quickly without the help of the other half of their brains. But there are also plenty of musicians who don’t know the "labels", how they relate to each other or how to access those "labels" on their instruments and they are not better off for it.

[Christian Miller]

As my composition professor at university would say:

”The composers compose, and the theorists pick up the droppings.”

Ooh I’m having that


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[Christian Miller]

I'm reminded of a story, possibly apocryphal as many stories in jazz are, of somebody taking a lesson with George Benson. George demonstrated something and the student said, "oh, that's the blah-de-blah chord." George replied "is that what it's called?" He didn't know the nomenclature, even though he knew exactly how to use it.

Apropos of your earlier comment about dissertations being of more value to the author than the reader, I just read through a dissertation about Ed Bickert's guitar style. Well, I didn't read every page because it was something like 300 pages long! Much of the dissertation was a discussion of how difficult it is to notate jazz, such as the swing groove, the frequent micro-syncopations, etc., without making an unreadable mess of it. Lots of technical discussion about different notation systems and transcribing. When it got down to the actual transcription and analysis of Ed's playing, the conclusion was more or less "Ed Bickert's a great jazz guitarist, this stuff doesn't notate very well and it doesn't always fit within western music theory easily" (I am way oversimplifying and I hope not insulting the author, who clearly put 1000 hours or more of very detailed work into this. It was a huge effort). The parts actually about Ed (rather than the challenges of notating jazz in western music scoring) were very interesting reading and with interesting analysis, but I can't say that the end result was my being able to play better or more like Ed than before I read it. I hope the author got something more than a doctorate from all that work.

That was Ritchie Harts story, I believe

Scholarship has its own specific needs. Actually one thing I found is that one had to spend a LOT of time establishing terms because you cannot guarantee the person assessing your work has any idea of your specific sub field within music. So your jazz guitar dissertation might be assessed by a panel of classical musicians. Or someone whose primary interest is in community music and plays basic folk guitar.

And one of the main things you need to show is that you have done the reading. Which is tricky sometimes if you are doing something interesting because there might not be much written, and the whole thing becomes cross disciplinary.


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[wolflen]

I’ve taught jazz guitar in the past to high-level, lifelong folk and rock players who had dabbled in jazz on and off. They called themselves “ear players.” I’m not sure whether their ears were actually better than mine (and not because I have exceptional ears), but what I consistently noticed was how slowly they acquired new information. They had their own way of learning, and everything had to be specific. They struggled to generalize or connect new ideas to what they already knew.
If I said something like, “Just flatten the fifths of these voicings you already know and you’ve got minor 7b5 chords,” they’d look puzzled. If I demonstrated a harmonic movement as a variation, they’d say, “Oh, that sounds nice.” But the moment I tried to describe the movement in a way they could apply elsewhere, it became very difficult for them to conceptualize.
I’m sure there are true “ear players” who can absorb new material quickly without the help of the other half of their brains. But there are also plenty of musicians who don’t know the "labels", how they relate to each other or how to access those "labels" on their instruments and they are not better off for it.

I have had similar results with some Rock players..some were intimidating..they could do some solos note for note with bends and effects but could not
name some of the chords in the tune.

I found a very common cause..for some of them. They did not know the chords in the scales or how to harmonize a scale.

So everything was isolated.chords didnt have a function or belong to a key. In some cases there was no key..just a chord chart.

It was disappointing to me that some found the task of learning harmony too difficult and dropped out..some with the tag line.."I think I can figure it out on my own"

[ragman1]

If you think about how few full-time jazz horn faculty positions there are it's not actually surprising that most horn players aren't as involved in education as he is. There aren't anywhere near enough jobs for them. Regarding why he got into teaching, this is a great interview where he goes into it in considerable depth.

https://mads.si.edu/mads/id/NMAH-AC0...ave_Transcript.

Sorry, I already know all about it.

Having said I didn't like his playing much I was told he was one of the greatest living sax players, etc. As if that meant I was supposed to like his playing because he was one of the greatest living sax players! Some people have some funny ideas. But I don't like the playing much. Not that he's not good, he is, but there's bit more to it than that. I find his tone and style harsh, which it is. But then he's a hard guy, as you can see by his face and background, including the polio.

And now, apparently, he's only doing education because there's not enough music for him to do. That's not it at all, as a bit of research would tell you, or just others if you're up to scratch. He's got a whole philosophy about it and that has shaped his life, both playing and setting up educational groups right from back in the 70's long before he toured with practically everybody.

So good for him and all his awards. Nothing to do with turning to teaching because there's no music around. Stupid thing to say.

By the way, he talks too much, viz both the video and your article. Not a good sign, although it doesn't necessarily make him a bad person. A conflicted one, perhaps, but not necessarily a bad one. At least he didn't get hooked on smack.

Is that enough?

[Mick-7]

But I don't like the playing much. Not that he's not good, he is, but there's bit more to it than that. I find his tone and style harsh, which it is.

I'm guessing you haven't heard him play ballads, e.g., his duo albums with Richie Beirach.

[kris]

Sorry, I already know all about it.

Having said I didn't like his playing much I was told he was one of the greatest living sax players, etc. As if that meant I was supposed to like his playing because he was one of the greatest living sax players! Some people have some funny ideas. But I don't like the playing much. Not that he's not good, he is, but there's bit more to it than that. I find his tone and style harsh, which it is. But then he's a hard guy, as you can see by his face and background, including the polio.

And now, apparently, he's only doing education because there's not enough music for him to do. That's not it at all, as a bit of research would tell you, or just others if you're up to scratch. He's got a whole philosophy about it and that has shaped his life, both playing and setting up educational groups right from back in the 70's long before he toured with practically everybody.

So good for him and all his awards. Nothing to do with turning to teaching because there's no music around. Stupid thing to say.

By the way, he talks too much, viz both the video and your article. Not a good sign, although it doesn't necessarily make him a bad person. A conflicted one, perhaps, but not necessarily a bad one. At least he didn't get hooked on smack.

Is that enough?

Ragman,
I don't think you like jazz.
You have already spoken about professionals in a strange way more than once.
You don't know Liebman's artistic work exactly.
This is terrible.

Dave Liebman As leader:

• 1970: Night Scapes with Carvel Six (CBS/Sony, 1975)
• 1973: First Visit (Philips, 1973)
• 1974: Lookout Farm (ECM, 1974)
• 1974: Drum Ode (ECM, 1975)
• 1975: Sweet Hands (A&M/Horizon, 1975)
• 1976: Light'n Up, Please! (A&M/Horizon, 1977)
• 1976-1977: The Last Call (EGO, 1979)
• 1978: Pendulum (Artists House, 1979) – live
• 1978?: 8 Originals from the Seventies (JA, 1979) – education primer not playing
• 1979: The Opal Heart featuring Mike Nock (44, 1979)
• 1979: Dedications (CMP, 1980)
• 1979: "Lieb": Close-Up (Contempo Vibrato, 1983)
• 1979: What It Is (CBS/Sony, 1980)
• 1980: If They Only Knew (Timeless, 1981)
• 1981-1982: Solo: Memories, Dreams and Reflections (PM, 1983)
• 1982: Spirit Renewed with Bob Moses, Eddie Gómez (Owl, 1991)
• 1984: Picture Show (PM, 1985)
• 1985: Guided Dream with the Tolvan Big Band (Dragon, 1986)
• 1985: The Loneliness of a Long Distance Runner (CMP, 1986)
• 1987?: Homage to John Coltrane (Owl, 1987)
• 1988: David Liebman Trio + One (Owl, 1988)
• 1989: Time Line (Owl, 1990)
• 1989: The Blessing of The Old, Long Sound (Innowo, 1990)
• 1990-1991: Classic Ballads (Candid, 1991)
• 1992?: Looking For The Light (A Tribute To Chet Baker) (CCB, 1992)
• 1992: Joy: The Music of John Coltrane (Candid, 1993)
• 1995: Voyage (Evidence, 1996)
• 1995: John Coltrane's Meditations (Arkadia Jazz, 1997)
• 1995: Live at MCG (MCG, 2009) – live
• 1996?: Return of the Tenor: Standards (Double-Time, 1996)
• 1996: New Vista (Arkadia Jazz, 1997)
• 1997?: The Elements: Water with Billy Hart, Cecil McBee & Pat Metheny (Arkadia Jazz, 1997)
• 1999?: Monk's Mood (Double-Time 1999)
• 2001: In a Mellow Tone (Zoho, 2004)
• 2001?: The Unknown Jobim (Global Music Network, 2001)
• 2001?: Liebman Plays Puccini: A Walk in the Clouds (Arkadia Jazz, 2001)
• 2003?: Conversation (Sunnyside, 2003)
• 2003?: Beyond the Line (OmniTone, 2003)
• 2003: Lieb Plays Wilder (Daybreak, 2005)
• 2004: The Distance Runner (hatOLOGY, 2005) – live at Jazzfestival Willisau
• 2006?: Back on the Corner (Tone Center, 2006)
• 2005, 2007: Live, As Always (Mama, 2010) – live compilation
• 2007?: Blues All Ways (OmniTone, 2007)
• 2008?: Further Conversations (True Azul, 2008)
• 2008?: Negative Space (EmArcy, 2008)
• 2008: Lieb Plays Weill with Jesse Van Ruller (Daybreak, 2009)
• 2013?: Lieb Plays The Beatles (Daybreak, 2013)
• 2013: Ceremony (Chesky, 2014)
• 2013: Samsara (Whaling City Sound, 2014)
• 2015: The Puzzle (Whaling City Sound, 2015)
• 2014-16: Expansions Live (Whaling City Sound, 2016)[2CD] – live compilation
• 2016: Fire (Jazzline, 2018)
• 2018?: To My Masters (Vaju, 2018)[CDR]

As co-leader

• 1975: Father Time with Frank Tusa et al. (Enja, 1975)
• 1975: Forgotten Fantasies with Richie Beirach (Horizon/A&M, 1976)
• 1978: Mosaic Select: Pendulum - Live At The Village Vanguard with Randy et al. (Mosaic, 2008)[3CD] – live
• 1978: Omerta with Richie Beirach (Trio, 1978)
• 1982: Earth Jones with Elvin Jones (Palo Alto, 1982)
• 1985: Double Edge with Richie Beirach (Storyville, 1987)
• 1985: The Duo: Live with Richie Beirach (Advance music, 1991) – live
• 1988?: The Energy of the Chance with Dave Love (Heads Up, 1988)
• 1998: Suite for Soprano Sax and String Orchestra with Florian Ross (Naxos, 1999)
• 2001: Cosmos with Abbey Rader (Cadence, 2003) – live
• 2004: Manhattan Dialogues with Phil Markowitz (Zoho, 2005)
• 2004: Duologue with Mike Nock (Birdland, 2007) – live
• 2004: Different But The Same with Ellery Eskelin, Tony Marino, Jim Black (hatOLOGY, 2005)
• 2005: Flashpoint with Anthony Jackson, Steve Smith, Aydin Esen (Mascot, 2005)
• 2006: Waters Ashore with Misha Feigin, LaDonna Smith (Trans Museq, 2006)
• 2009: Quest for Freedom with Richie Beirach (Sunnyside, 2010) – live
• 2010: Live at Nozart with Robert Landfermann, Pablo Held, Christian Lillinger (Klaeng, 2019) – live
• 2011: Sketches of Aranjuez with Saudades Jazz Orchestra (PAO, 2015)
• 2011: The Fallout of Dreams with Steve Dalachinsky (Rogueart, 2014)
• 2012: Blue Rose with John Stowell (Origin, 2014)
• 2012: Sound Desire with Romano Pratesi (Dodicilune, 2019)
• 2013?: Lineage with Michael Stephans (Whaling City Sound, 2013)
• 2012, 14: Media Luz with Jean-Marie Machado, Claus Stötter, Quatuor Psophos (La Buissonne, 2014) – live
• 2014?: The Miami Jazz Project with Arthur Barron, Abel Pabon (Zoho, 2014)
• 2015: Distant Song with Fred Farell (Whaling City Sound, 2018)
• 2016 Masters In Paris with Martial Solal (Sunnyside, 2020)
• 2016: The Unknowable with Tatsuya Nakatani, Adam Rudolph (RareNoise, 2018)
• 2017: Petite Fleur: The Music of Sidney Bechet with John Stowell (Origin, 2018)
• 2018: Chi with Adam Rudolph, Hamid Drake (RareNoise, 2019) – live
• 2019?: Four Visions with David Binney, Donny McCaslin, Samuel Blais (Sunnyside, 2019)
• 2019?: On The Corner Live! with Jeff Coffin, Victor Wooten, Chester Thompson, Chris Walters, James Dasilva (Ear Up, 2019) – live
• 2019: Journey Around The Truth with Andy Emler [wd] (Unknown, 2019)
• 2019: Mussorgsky Pictures Revisited with Kristjan Randalu (Budapest Music Center, 2020)
• 2019-20: The Rise Up with Mehmet Ali Sanlikol (Dunya, 2020)
• 2020: Quint5t with Randy Brecker, Marc Copland, Drew Gress, Joey Baron (InnerVoice Jazz, 2020)
• 2021: New Now with Tyshawn Sorey, Adam Rudolph (Meta, 2022) – live

[kris]

I'm guessing you haven't heard him play ballads, e.g., his duo albums with Richie Beirach.

Great stuff.
I'm a fan of his playing.

[grahambop]

Bergonzi and Liebman do still get out and tour, I’ve seen both of them at local clubs here in the UK in recent years.

[kris]

Bergonzi and Liebman do still get out and tour, I’ve seen both of them at local clubs here in the UK in recent years.

At one of the jazz festivals in Warsaw, I played on the same stage as Dave Liebman just a week later.

[John A.]

Sorry, I already know all about it.

No need to apologize for omniscience.

Is that enough?

Certainly enough to remind me that any time I have strong negative feelings about an artist and am tempted to go off on a rant that’s an opportunity to look inward, examine why, and reconsider.

[ragman1]

No need to apologize for omniscience.

Oh, I wouldn't claim that, I just googled his biography!

As far as I'm concerned all personal preferences are equal. Seeking to silence those whose preferences are different from your own is ignorant.

[kris]

Soon, 'jazz theory" will transform into "jazz philosophy'.
And the real blues will be, as always, the real blues.
Best
Kris

[ragman1]

Songs in the key of blues.

Seriously though, blues is one of many musics that we can try to explain with the same theory we use for Mozart, but there needs to be some grains of salt taken along with it.

That's just it, blues doesn't fit with traditional Western functional harmony. But that's because it comes out of a wholly different tradition (West African). But the thing is it works, and how.

It's a bit of a slap in the face for Western music which undoubtedly considers itself superior but there we are :-)

[kris]

If I were to play on three chords all my life, I would prefer Western music.

[joe2758]

I learned a major lick recently that uses a minor 3rd in it (it also has a major 3rd), but not as a passing note/enclosure, and It's not bluesy at all, it's pretty. I never would have thought of it, it is now one of my favorite phrases!

[John A.]

Oh, I wouldn't claim that, I just googled his biography!

As far as I'm concerned all personal preferences are equal. Seeking to silence those whose preferences are different from your own is ignorant.

Yeah, but if you say something provocative and negative about a great player don't be surprised when people tell you to shut up.