My thoughts on jazz theory

[joe2758]

I remember a few years ago there was a young sax player in NYC who was sort of up and coming traditional Hawkins/Young type with really conservative taste. Wayne Shorter was playing somewhere around him and people were excited, so he said "F*** Wayne Shorter" on social media for no other reason than people were talking about it and he didn't like WS. Mind boggling (and I don't listen to WS)

[kris]

Yeah, but if you say something provocative and negative about a great player don't be surprised when people tell you to shut up.

Miles Davis called D. Liebman when he was looking for musicians for a new band. Miles wanted D. Liebman to recommend musicians to him.
This is the world of the top musicians in the history of jazz.If someone is not aware of it, he unfortunately makes a fool of himself.

[kris]

I remember a few years ago there was a young sax player in NYC who was sort of up and coming traditional Hawkins/Young type with really conservative taste. Wayne Shorter was playing somewhere around him and people were excited, so he said "F*** Wayne Shorter" on social media for no other reason than people were talking about it and he didn't like WS. Mind boggling (and I don't listen to WS)

Maybe it's just a mischievous young saxophonist with a lack of respect for the giant.

[pamosmusic]

I remember a few years ago there was a young sax player in NYC who was sort of up and coming traditional Hawkins/Young type with really conservative taste. Wayne Shorter was playing somewhere around him and people were excited, so he said "F*** Wayne Shorter" on social media for no other reason than people were talking about it and he didn't like WS. Mind boggling (and I don't listen to WS)

Oh yeah this was a big blowup. He was young and up-and-coming but also like ... hosted the Smalls session, so kind of a name in that respect.

[Litterick]

I remember a few years ago there was a young sax player in NYC who was sort of up and coming traditional Hawkins/Young type with really conservative taste. Wayne Shorter was playing somewhere around him and people were excited, so he said "F*** Wayne Shorter" on social media for no other reason than people were talking about it and he didn't like WS. Mind boggling (and I don't listen to WS)

Alex Hoffman. The hostage video is over an hour long.

[kris]

Alex Hoffman. The hostage video is over an hour long.

I watched this video. It is a lost hour. I don't know this saxophonist, but you can see that he limits himself to jazz, which is already history/Parker, Young, Hawkins..etc/. He has a negative attitude towards modern jazz.
I would definitely rather go to a concert of W. Shorter than go to a concert of this young saxophone player.
I really liked the person who led the conversation.
Best
Kris

[kris]

[Mick-7]

I watched this video. It is a lost hour.

That's a quite a feat, I could not listen to more than a few minutes of that, just sheer ignorance.

[wolflen]

alex hoffman. The hostage video is over an hour long.

warning.....click bate

[kris]

That's a quite a feat, I could not listen to more than a few minutes of that, just sheer ignorance.

I wanted to understand his explanations about W. Shorter.
But unfortunately I didn't understand.

[ragman1]

Hey, I've got a new tune. It's called theoriitis :-)

[kris]

I'm lucky to have you on the "ignore list'.

[ragman1]

Jack Zucker would like it. The last note is a b9 over a M7 chord.

can you play a b9 against a Maj7 chord? Answer, YES OF COURSE YOU CAN.

Of course you can

[Aiq]

I so wish Miles was around to crack on Alex.

[jzucker]

nobody wants to talk about this but when I studied with Martino, it became obvious that he didn't know formal music theory. Which somewhat proves my point. IMO, he went off on tangents with the pointed star techniques. I thought he made things more complicated than they needed to be. "Jazz" theory is simple but the sale of "jazz" theory has made things 10x more complicated.

Benson, Martino, Wes didn't know formal theory and yet, they played extremely complicated material. In one interview of John Coltrane, they asked him about McCoy Tyner's voicings. He wasn't sure of what Mccoy was doing which I found interesting.

[James W]

. In one interview of John Coltrane, they asked him about McCoy Tyner's voicings. He wasn't sure of what Mccoy was doing which I found interesting.

Could we have the link or a book reference for this interview please?

[jzucker]

Could we have the link or a book reference for this interview please?

i don't have a photographic memory, sorry

[Aiq]

nobody wants to talk about this but when I studied with Martino, it became obvious that he didn't know formal music theory. Which somewhat proves my point. IMO, he went off on tangents with the pointed star techniques. I thought he made things more complicated than they needed to be. "Jazz" theory is simple but the sale of "jazz" theory has made things 10x more complicated.

Benson, Martino, Wes didn't know formal theory and yet, they played extremely complicated material. In one interview of John Coltrane, they asked him about McCoy Tyner's voicings. He wasn't sure of what Mccoy was doing which I found interesting.

Jack, how do you feel about the idea that Martino’s thing replaced piano based theory with guitar based theory using aug/dim forms?

I found him to be conversant in theory. I was in a couple of group seminars and many personal conversations, not formal lessons like you.

[jzucker]

Jack, how do you feel about the idea that Martino’s thing replaced piano based theory with guitar based theory using aug/dim forms?

I found him to be conversant in theory. I was in a couple of group seminars and many personal conversations, not formal lessons like you.

i liked this minor 3rd and aug discussions. He borrowed those from Dennis Sandole who I also studied with. And i do think they are perfect for guitar players and present a cogent way of looking at approaches on the fingerboard

[Tal_175]

Benson, Martino, Wes didn't know formal theory and yet, they played extremely complicated material. In one interview of John Coltrane, they asked him about McCoy Tyner's voicings. He wasn't sure of what Mccoy was doing which I found interesting.

These are sections from his book Linear Expressions. It seems to me like he knew his way around CST.

p.56:

[Tal_175]

Also
p 57:

[jzucker]

Also
p 57:

when we discussed theory interactively, he couldn't tell me the various modes of melodic minor and what chords they implied.

[Tal_175]

when we discussed theory interactively, he couldn't tell me the various modes of melodic minor and what chords they implied.

Then it's possible his editor or ghost writer added formal jargon to the book. But regardless, I don't see how he could use his minor conversion concept in various harmonic situations without having an idea of what chords are implied by different super-impositions of minor scales.

[jzucker]

Then it's possible his editor or ghost writer added formal jargon to the book. But regardless, I don't see how he could use his minor conversion concept in various harmonic situations without having an idea of what chords are implied by different super-impositions of minor scales.

i think it's pretty easy to do that by ear which is what joe pass did. Joe had very little formal training. His ghost writer had to analyze everything he played for the joe pass guitar style. He knew that playing minor up a 1/2 step gave him all the alterations he liked. Martino approached it the same way. Melodic off the 5 -- vanilla, melodic off the b7 -- some tension, melodic off the b2 -- alterations.

[charlieparker]

I watched this video. It is a lost hour. I don't know this saxophonist, but you can see that he limits himself to jazz, which is already history/Parker, Young, Hawkins..etc/. He has a negative attitude towards modern jazz.
I would definitely rather go to a concert of W. Shorter than go to a concert of this young saxophone player.
I really liked the person who led the conversation.
Best
Kris

I listened to the guys playing and thought he sounded pretty good. He just seems to have really conservative tastes like Wynton. I don't think disliking or not appreciating Shorter is a crime but dismissing his ability to play and the way he critiqued Shorter was over the top.