G# / Ab in D7, key of C

[alez]

One more question, hopefully not of this type:

Then about a week later he asks another question which evidently demonstrates he hasn't understood a damn thing.

Over a Rhythm changes bridge, which of the 4 dominants would make sense to give a lydian dominant treatment to? I can already answer that not to the last one, V7. What about the preceding III7, VI7, II7?

(I just switched to roman numerals because Rhythm changes are so typical in the key of Bb that keeping my usual "key of C names" would make things very confusing.)

[ragman1]

Alez -

Thanks for your replies. Look, I'm not antagonistic to you in the least, it's just very difficult to know how to answer your questions sometimes. Do you want a practical, applicable answer or a textbook theory answer? Or both, maybe?

The practical answer to the D7 - G7 - C example is easy, play A mel m over the D7 and mixo or alt over the G7. Or just some kind of end-lick back to C.

The theory answer to the movement between D7 and G7 dominants is pretty easy too, the 3rd of one becomes the 7th of the other. F#/C to F/B. Magic!

But I do hope you realise the repeated point that, if we're talking about actually playing these things, there are other ways to play them.

For example, did you know you could play Em pentatonic over D7 - G7 - CM7? That pentatonic works on all three chords.
You could use C blues over it.
You could play F mel m over the G7, that's nice.

And so on. Incidentally, the wholetone scale is probably just a simpler way of producing an altered sound. A lot of well-known jazzers used it before the alt scale became a 'thing'. It's effective but it lacks the more subtle nuances of the alt sound.

Ultimately, it all revolves around how the notes sound in practice, which is why I tend to focus on that rather than theoretical concepts.

[ragman1]

One more question, hopefully not of this type:



Over a Rhythm changes bridge, which of the 4 dominants would make sense to give a lydian dominant treatment to? I can already answer that not to the last one, V7. What about the preceding III7, VI7, II7?

(I just switched to roman numerals because Rhythm changes are so typical in the key of Bb that keeping my usual "key of C names" would make things very confusing.)

OK, take D7 - G7 - C7 - F7.

For me, there are two ways to do it (not the only ways). One is use the lydb7 over the first three and the alt over the F7. That would be:

A mel m, D mel m, G mel m, Gb mel m.

Or you can just move them down chromatically which gives you an alt sound over the G7:

A mel m, Ab mel m, G mel m, Gb mel m.

I prefer the last one :-)

[garybaldy]

Then about a week later he asks another question which evidently demonstrates he hasn't understood a damn thing.

Does it really have to be a 'damn' thing?

[pamosmusic]

It is relevant to me. I wouldn't want to upset anyone if poss. Plus, you always make an effort to help me, even recording and posting these nice audio clips and so on.



Glad that it's so.

Ragman is a grouch. He’s literally the only one annoyed by this. Ask whatever you like and post where you think it best.

I was only pointing out that you’d posted this in the theory section because Ragman was getting irritated with it being so theoretical. Seems like the appropriate place to be getting theoretical to me.

[alez]

Awesome. Really.

[alez]

Or you can just move them down chromatically which gives you an alt sound over the G7:

I've mentioned I'm Beginning to See the Light earlier (because of its bVI7). Its bridge is like that of Rhythm changes, but chromatic, i.e. III7 bIII7 II7...

Anyway, point taken. Mixolydian for V7, lydian b7 and/or altered and/or whole tone for the other three as they're sort of stand-alone sounds. As a general idea.

[Christian Miller]

Oh my God. It sounds so cool I'm done playing anything else than that from now on

Great. Now if you want to get drunk listen to Monk and have a drink every time you hear him play a whole tone.

Beat. Ear. Training. Ever.


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[alez]

I'm playing over those and I'm being able to understand the consonances and dissonances I obtain. Very nice.

[alez]

Great. Now if you want to get drunk listen to Monk and have a drink every time you hear him play a whole tone.

I am already unable to listen to Monk at night and not get slightly tipsy home alone. For some reason Monk implies wine to me.

[ragman1]

Alez -

Since you've fallen in love with the wholetone scale, you can play it over the RC bridge:

D+ - % - G+ - %
C+ - % - F+ - %

But you can also do the chromatic thing with that too:

D+ - % - Db+ - %
C+ - % - B+ - %

Yes, B wholetone over the F7.

And, since you seem to like my soundclips, here it is. Nothing fancy :-)

[pamosmusic]

Alez -

Since you've fallen in love with the wholetone scale, you can play it over the RC bridge:

D+ - % - G+ - %
C+ - % - F+ - %

But you can also do the chromatic thing with that too:

D+ - % - Db+ - %
C+ - % - B+ - %

Yes, B wholetone over the F7.

And, since you seem to like my soundclips, here it is. Nothing fancy :-)

Because it’s whole tone you can also do it ascending.

D+ Eb+ E+ F+

[alez]

Ha ha, amazing, thanks! They're not obvious sounds but they do work!

[alez]

Because it’s whole tone you can also do it ascending.

D+ Eb+ E+ F+

Oh, wow, true. I noticed this during my attempts before. The change from one of these to the following one becomes a no brainer. The chord names don't reflect it, but it's just switching from one WT scale to the only other one, its interleaved counterpart.

[Christian Miller]

One more question, hopefully not of this type:



Over a Rhythm changes bridge, which of the 4 dominants would make sense to give a lydian dominant treatment to? I can already answer that not to the last one, V7. What about the preceding III7, VI7, II7?

(I just switched to roman numerals because Rhythm changes are so typical in the key of Bb that keeping my usual "key of C names" would make things very confusing.)

Any and all of them.

In his solo on Moose the Mooche bird uses a sort of m9(maj7) sound (similar to the A train shout chorus) on the first two chords. Am(maj7) on D7 and Dm(maj7) on G7


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[Christian Miller]

Check out the tenor sax (Charlie Rouse) soloing using whole tone scales on a backcycling progression (sweet Georgia brown) similar to a rhythm B section

F7-Bb7-Eb7


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[alez]

Thanks for the pointers.

Bright Mississippi looks like a great tune for trying out these things, plenty of VI7 and II7.

Charlie Rouse sounds very Monk-like. He was perfect for the job. Like Sam Butera for Louis Prima or Paul Desmond for Dave Brubeck, just a perfect fit.

[Christian Miller]

Coltrane wasn’t too shabby either!


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