G# / Ab in D7, key of C

[pamosmusic]

I don't really want to reply to this, although I am. You're saying exactly the same thing only taking longer to do it. It won't fill the OP with confidence. My aim was to simplify the whole thing for the OP, not confuse him with detail.

The backdoor is an unresolved dominant. It might sound resolved but that's irrelevant.

He didn't ask about the V of ii so I didn't bother with it. But in case he notices it, the V before a ii (the ii being that V's i) is better treated as an altered chord because it implies a 7b9 even if it doesn't say so. Personally I tend to use the alt rather than the lyd dom. Or the relevant harmonic minor, of course.

What Alez needs to understand is that these 'rules' on paper are one thing but in practice it's not always practical to apply them like that. That's why I recommend that he looks at transcriptions to see what good players do.

We’re not saying the same thing. You’re saying the “rule” applies to any dominant that doesn’t go to the tonic of the key. I’m saying it applies to any dominant that doesn’t resolve up a fourth.

That’s not the same thing.

All of Me would be a prime example. Lydian dominant isn’t a terribly common choice over that E7, for example.

And saying that any dominant that doesn’t go up a fourth “isn’t resolved” even though it “may sound resolved” is silly … what else would “resolved” even mean.

And as for the part about it not being a rule, you did say it. I decided to emphasize it. Mea culpa.

All of Mea Culpa?

[ragman1]

I don't care. He wants to know what to play over that D7. I've told him, and why. Because it sounds good. That is, actually, the only reason. There's no actual theoretical reason for it.

Re. All Of Me, presumably you mean the D7 before the Dm. I'd still play A mel m over it, not G major. Because it sounds right. In any case you could argue that the Dm was simply a part of the G7 that comes next, which is up a fourth from D7.

Really, I don't care. In fact, I think Alez ought to go somewhere nice and peaceful where these things are explained simply and coherently. For the good of his sanity probably!

[pamosmusic]

I don't care. He wants to know what to play over that D7. I've told him, and why. Because it sounds good. That is, actually, the only reason. There's no actual theoretical reason for it.

No you didn’t say “because it sounds good.” You said “because of this rule” and then explained the rule incorrectly.

If there is no actual theoretical reason for it, then you spent an awful lot of time going over the theoretical reasons for it. Unresolved dominants and whatnot.

But anyway … yeah … the earbone is the final arbiter of such things. The rules are interesting but useful only as a jumping off point.

[ragman1]

You know, since I've been here (17 years now), I've seen this BS played out again and again. A confused starter asks a simple question and the theory boys, who aren't interested in helping the guy, begin their little circus. The questioner either disappears or is overwhelmingly effusive with his thanks. Thank you sooooo much, it's really helpful and interesting.

Then about a week later he asks another question which evidently demonstrates he hasn't understood a damn thing. And it starts again.

Even now, alez is saying things like 'So most people here agree that the best idea is the lydian b7'. He hasn't said 'Right, thanks, I've got it'. He's still in the realm of concepts, uncertain and still confused, like the whole thing is just a matter of opinion, agreement and disagreement.

It's partly his fault too but we're not helping. It's almost a sickness.

[ragman1]

No you didn’t say “because it sounds good.”

'Why? It sounds better.'

Post #2:

G# / Ab in D7, key of C

[ragman1]

If there is no actual theoretical reason for it, then you spent an awful lot of time going over the theoretical reasons for it. Unresolved dominants and whatnot

No, I explained what to play over his D7 and why, because it sounds better. Not the same thing.

I think I'll just leave you to it. He's got my answer, which is the right answer, and good luck to him. It's up to him now.

[pamosmusic]

You know, since I've been here (17 years now), I've seen this BS played out again and again. A confused starter asks a simple question and the theory boys, who aren't interested in helping the guy, begin their little circus.

Ah well in the is case you were one of the theory boys!

You’ve become the very thing you swore to destroy!

(also I might point out that the question was posed in the “Theory” subforum, but I digress.)

[ragman1]

Alez, you need to play these things. And record them so you can hear it properly.

Play D mixo (G major scale) over the D7. Then play A melodic minor over it and see which is better. You've already said the mixo is 'just alright'.

Exactly. It's not very awful but it lacks a certain something. So try the other one. I take it you know how to use A melodic minor? Then you'll have solved it.

Good luck :-)

[Christian Miller]

Oh the Ab in the D7?

I misread. lol. As you were haha.

But it is related. And bizarrely a lot of what I said about a scale choices is relevant.

That’s a Strayhorn thing. Could be whole tone, or borrowed relative minor. In the case of Take the A Train it’s clearly a passing note, but Strayhorn likes to lean on those. You hear both on recordings of that tune.

Also see Chelsea Bridge


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[FwLineberry]

We’re not saying the same thing. You’re saying the “rule” applies to any dominant that doesn’t go to the tonic of the key. I’m saying it applies to any dominant that doesn’t resolve up a fourth.

That’s not the same thing.

In defense of ragman1, he said, "Resolved ones go to their one chord, i.e. G7 - C." That's not the same thing as saying, "go to the tonic of the key."

D7 going to its one chord would be D7 - G.

How is that different from what you said?

.

[pamosmusic]

In defense of ragman1, he said, "Resolved ones go to their one chord, i.e. G7 - C." That's not the same thing as saying, "go to the tonic of the key."

D7 going to its one chord would be D7 - G.

How is that different from what you said?

.

You skipped the following sentence:

They usually go to another dominant, as in your D7 - G7 - C example. There, the D7 is unresolved but the G7 is resolved because it goes to C

He follows up by saying that D7 to G7 is an example of an unresolved dominant, or whatever. But in this case, the rule he's referring to wouldn't apply, because the resolution is up a fourth, even though it's not to "the one chord." The rule he's referring to is when a dominant resolves by some other interval. It would also be a sort of parent rule to the one that alez refers to with tritone substitution, because tritone sub chords resolve down by half-step, which is to say not up by fourth. So he sort of states the rule correctly, I guess, but then applies it incorrectly to the OP's example.

So alez's example DOES resolve to "its one chord." Meaning G something. So the rule ragman is citing doesn't apply. Which means if that lydian dominant vibe sounds good (which it does) then it must be for some other reason than the rule he laid out.

[Christian Miller]

II7 often takes #11 (major 7 of VIm) and doesn’t need to go altered or anything to move to V7

I don’t have an explanation, it’s just the way it seems to go.


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[pamosmusic]

II7 often takes #11 (major 7 of VIm) and doesn’t need to go altered or anything to move to V7

I don’t have an explanation, it’s just the way it seems to go.


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Yes I've found myself arguing with ragman about how he got a rule wrong and also how I think the rule is silly.

I am through the looking glass.

[Christian Miller]

Yes I've found myself arguing with ragman about how he got a rule wrong and also how I think the rule is silly.

I am through the looking glass.

You can have your cake and eat it


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[ragman1]

In defense of ragman1, he said, "Resolved ones go to their one chord, i.e. G7 - C." That's not the same thing as saying, "go to the tonic of the key."

D7 going to its one chord would be D7 - G.

Quite right.

D7 - GM7, yes. D7 - Gm7, yes.

D7 - G7 - CM7, no. It's then a secondary dominant. And they generally take the lyd dom or the ii of V mel m.

* I say generally because there are other ways of playing all this.

[pamosmusic]

Quite right.

D7 - GM7, yes. D7 - Gm7, yes.

D7 - G7 - CM7, no. It's then a secondary dominant. And they generally take the lyd dom or the ii of V mel m.

Whew for a short post ...

Quite right.

So if a dominant isn't a secondary dominant, then you're saying that the rule applies only if it's going to the tonic of the key. So Mr. Lineberry is, in fact, quite wrong?

D7 - G7 - CM7, no.

So again, this is different than what I said. So Mr. Lineberry is not correct that we are saying the same thing. I am saying that the thing you're citing refers to motion up by fourth. This is motion up by fourth and you are saying it does not apply. So we're not saying the same thing.

It's then a secondary dominant. And they generally take the lyd dom

This is hogwash. Secondary dominants take all sorts of stuff, including lydian dominant, though it's just one among many. It varies from player to player, and from player to player it is extremely context-dependent. One important piece of context might be, what chord does that secondary dominant resolve to? Is it minor, for example? In that case, Lydian dominant would actually be a somewhat unusual choice. Particularly in the bebop period and later. Definitely more common would be some sort of 7b9 sound.

or the ii of V mel m.

I assume in this case you mean A melodic minor over D7, which is the same thing as the D lydian dominant.

Tighten up, ragman. Tighten up.

[pauln]

This is the scale the C18 guys used on it. I don't know what it's called. I don't think they had a name for it.

C Bb Ab G F#Eb D C on Ab7#11 and to the B of G

G Ab Bb C D Eb F# G is G Neopolitan

[Christian Miller]

G Ab Bb C D Eb F# G is G Neopolitan

Thanks. That makes sense as a name. This chord and melodic scale was common in the Neapolitan school.

That said the scale in question for the bVI7 is built on degree V. The Neapolitan scale on the I is a fit for the Neapolitan sixth (bII usually in first inv), unsurprisingly. So that’s probably where the name comes from.

In classical music it’s use is a step wise run from chord tone to chord tone.

(It is a total neologism though )


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[alez]

Straight up dominant over the tritone sub (eg Db Mixolydian or Gb major scale over Db7) is pretty common too.

Indeed. I should probably mention that Barry would teach straight dominant over all dominant chords first. The specific example he brought up in class was the Ab7(#11) in Cherokee (which comes from the melody.) He instructed us to play Ab dominant there and not to worry.

Yes, actually someone seasoned taught me mixolydian is actually "default" for all tritone subs.

In jazz, aside from the blues the lydian tetrachord 1-2-3-#4 is common to both the bVI7 led Dom and whole tone which are common choices too. Here's an early example.

This chord was SUPER COMMON in 1920s-30s jazz as an 'exotic' sound.

Ellington REALLY REALLY liked this sound

I really want to try whole tone over that now. I live in a flat and I don't play trumpet here this time of the day but I'm really curious.

I learnt Ab7 resolving to C (or followed by C, whatever) with Ellington's I'm Beginning to See the Light. I find Ellington very educational.

But anyway … yeah … the earbone is the final arbiter of such things. The rules are interesting but useful only as a jumping off point.

I understand why you always insist on this. I totally get it. Still, this jumping off point is useful.

Really, I don't care. In fact, I think Alez ought to go somewhere nice and peaceful where these things are explained simply and coherently. For the good of his sanity probably!

I love it here, man. I love to read people's views and share the passion for these things. Most of my friends make a living from music. But they still like to hang out with an outsider like myself because the stuff we like and we're passionate about is the same.

You know, since I've been here (17 years now), I've seen this BS played out again and again. A confused starter asks a simple question and the theory boys, who aren't interested in helping the guy, begin their little circus. The questioner either disappears or is overwhelmingly effusive with his thanks. Thank you sooooo much, it's really helpful and interesting.

Then about a week later he asks another question which evidently demonstrates he hasn't understood a damn thing. And it starts again.

Even now, alez is saying things like 'So most people here agree that the best idea is the lydian b7'. He hasn't said 'Right, thanks, I've got it'. He's still in the realm of concepts, uncertain and still confused, like the whole thing is just a matter of opinion, agreement and disagreement.

It's partly his fault too but we're not helping. It's almost a sickness.

I find all of it very natural and enjoyable.

[alez]

(also I might point out that the question was posed in the “Theory” subforum, but I digress.)

Sometimes I'm not sure what subforum is best. Lately I've been using this one because not long ago Ragman didn't like me talking or asking about theory in the "chords & comping" subforum. Or at least that was my understanding then.

Alez, you need to play these things. And record them so you can hear it properly.

Play D mixo (G major scale) over the D7. Then play A melodic minor over it and see which is better. You've already said the mixo is 'just alright'.

Exactly. It's not very awful but it lacks a certain something. So try the other one. I take it you know how to use A melodic minor? Then you'll have solved it.

Good luck :-)

Great, will do, thanks.

Oh the Ab in the D7?

I misread. lol. As you were haha.

But it is related. And bizarrely a lot of what I said about a scale choices is relevant.

Ha ha, funny but true.

That’s a Strayhorn thing. Could be whole tone, or borrowed relative minor. In the case of Take the A Train it’s clearly a passing note, but Strayhorn likes to lean on those. You hear both on recordings of that tune.

Also see Chelsea Bridge

Great, thanks, will check.

I really want to try the whole tone now.

II7 often takes #11 (major 7 of VIm) and doesn’t need to go altered or anything to move to V7

I don’t have an explanation, it’s just the way it seems to go.

Fair enough. I'll see what my ear can make of it.

[ragman1]

Sometimes I'm not sure what subforum is best. Lately I've been using this one because not long ago Ragman didn't like me talking or asking about theory in the "chords & comping" subforum. Or at least that was my understanding then.

I'm not in charge of anything so what I personally like or dislike isn't relevant. I don't really do like and dislike anyway, I tend to be factual about things. I remember the thread and it's still here. You can review it.

Passing chord C --> Em7

I think that was the one when, after many thoughtful attempts by people to answer your question, you announced you didn't actually want to play that tune and weren't really interested in it. Not a smart move :-)

[alez]

Oh, yes, I see. Anyway, using this other subforum should prevent that from happening next time. My questions tend to be similar: trying to understand why this or that chord or chord movement works, alternatives to it and so on.

[alez]

I'm not in charge of anything so what I personally like or dislike isn't relevant.

It is relevant to me. I wouldn't want to upset anyone if poss. Plus, you always make an effort to help me, even recording and posting these nice audio clips and so on.

I don't really do like and dislike anyway, I tend to be factual about things.

Glad that it's so.

[alez]

I really want to try whole tone over that now. I live in a flat and I don't play trumpet here this time of the day but I'm really curious.

I really want to try the whole tone now.

Oh my God. It sounds so cool I'm done playing anything else than that from now on

[alez]

It's interesting how I already had the feeling that some dominant chords sound like kind of entities by themselves rather than "five of", notably D7 and A7.

However, Berklee doesn't even call them II7 and VI7 at all, to them they're V/V and V/II which is the opposite to this feeling I had. I was never quite alright with that, especially for D7 as it seems that's never used as a "five of" at all in practice. Strangely (to me), Berklee does use this idea of "dual purpose" for other chords, Am7, Dm7, Em7, describing them as both "two of" but also as entities by themselves, depending on context or whatever else. They explain that in their book, under "Related II of V7/II: Dual Function" and later on for the other two m7 chords.

I've been experimenting with the tips on this thread over It Had to Be You, which gives plenty of time to play over A7 and D7 in measures 3 to 6 before moving to a more "functional" dominant. I need to practice the changes to improve its musicality but I can see that the scale material does work.

I'm making sense of it now, and that's exactly what I meant here:

Still, this jumping off point is useful.