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Hi
This article:
Sonny Rollins Secrets to V7 of V7 in But Not For Me Solo • Jazzadvice
Says it's common practice to include the note G# / Ab in the chord D7, key of C as usual.
No distinction of this chord tone being a lydian 4th / #11 or a b5: "But keep in mind that the V7 of V7 is frequently voiced by the chording instrument with a b5 /#11 in the chord structure... As we study examples with the V7 of V7, we’ll just notate it as a standard dominant chord, so be aware that the chord voicings may include the b5 /#11 even when it’s not notated."
You guys are said "chording instrument".
Do you sound this tone? Is there a explanation or justification for it other than it being common practice or using it because you like it? Is that the sound of a particular era in jazz?
Cheers,
Alex
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07-01-2024 11:40 AM
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'Stand-alone' non-diatonic chords (chords which appear but aren't part of a proper modulation into another key) are usually given the lydian treatment. For major chords that's the plain lydian mode. For dominants, it's lydian dominant.
The D7 in your example belongs to the key of G, not C. So it's a stand-alone non-diatonic chord.
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Say you had EbM7 - G7 - CM7. You'd use the Eb maj scale but sharpen the 4th note from Ab to A:
Eb F G A Bb C D. That's Eb lydian.
But if the chord was Eb7 you'd use the lydian dominant:
Eb F G A Bb C Db.
Why? It sounds better.
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So, in your example, D7 mixo is D E F# G A B C. Sharpen the 4 to G# and that's D lydian dominant. Et voila.
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If the chord is D9 I may embellish by using a #11 at the top of the chord and then resolving to the 5th. I may also put the 13th on top and make a little melody with the highest notes in the chords. It may include the b7 too (may require a different grip).
I do it by ear and I never really thought through the theory. Probably more with secondary dominant usages, I guess.
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PS. Most players simplify the working-out by using the ii of the secondary dominant. So, over your D7, they'd play an A melodic minor:
A B C D E F# G#
Which is the same notes as D lydian dominant.
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I think this is most common when it’s a long II7 chord preceding a full ii-V …
The melodies for A Train and Dewey Square are good examples.
But it’s definitely not always. Natural 4 in a lot of solos. And the chording instrument will just omit the 4 most of the time anyway.
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It's a joy to read you. I appreciate your comments a lot, they're really useful.
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You all seem to agree this is all about "lydian b7". Which explains why my rudimentary mixolydian lines sound just alright.
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Montgomery-Ward bridge turnaround D7 | % | Dm7 | G7 ||
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I think I may have payed that once or twice before 
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Interestingly (to me at least), Berklee seems to say that lydian dominant is the scale for all tritone subs. So all of a sudden ALL dominant chords are related to lydian dominant?
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This is a Berklee-ism. It’s a useful rule of thumb (because Db Lydian dominant is the same as G altered, so Barry Harris’s tritone’s minor would give you some approximation of this too) but I take issue with the word “all.” It’d be awfully boring if that were true. Originally Posted by alez
Straight up dominant over the tritone sub (eg Db Mixolydian or Gb major scale over Db7) is pretty common too.
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Exactly. Originally Posted by alez
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I don’t know. Doubtful. That sharp eleven is great, but can’t fix a busted line, yknow? Originally Posted by alez
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No. There are two kinds of dominant, resolved and unresolved. Resolved ones go to their one chord, i.e. G7 - C. Originally Posted by alez
Unresolved ones don't go to their one chord. They usually go to another dominant, as in your D7 - G7 - C example. There, the D7 is unresolved but the G7 is resolved because it goes to C.
Resolved dominants usually use the mixolydian. If they're altered, like G7b9 or G7#5b9, then the altered scale is generally used.
Unresolved dominants, like the D7 in that example, sound better using the lyd dom scale. As you've discovered.
NB: Bear in mind these are theoretical examples and answers. In real life all kinds of things go on because there are many ways to play these sounds. That's why it's a very good idea to study well-known players' transcriptions to see what they do over these tunes.
And if you find, as you most likely will, that they're breaking, or just not using, all the 'rules' then you'll soon find out the limitations of the theory answers! Not that they're wrong, but they're not always useful either.
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What's a 'busted line'? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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So two issues with this. Originally Posted by ragman1
The first is that you're not describing this rule correctly, at least so far as I'm aware.
That lydian dominant rule refers to dominants that don't resolve up a fourth or down a fifth, i.e. "to their one." When you see dominants that don't resolve up a fourth, then you should use lydian dominant. I don't love the terminology "resolved" or "unresolved" for this because the backdoor cadence would fall into this category and that dominant resolution up a whole step really sounds strong––i.e. it sounds resolved. Anyway ... alez's example wouldn't really apply here because that D7 resolves by fourth to G7. As I mentioned, that sharp 11 sound is particularly common when it precedes a ii-V, so goes to Dm7 then G7 as in A' Train, Dewey Square, Another You, All of Me etc. But I think I'd probably still say that's a fourth resolution because we usually treat ii-Vs like units. So that would be D7 to G7 with a little pit-stop at Dm7 along the way.
My second problem is that these rules don't really hold up all that often in practice. There are plenty of these classic lydian dominant cases where this isn't used, and they're pretty abundant all over your usual transcriptions. Jim Hall on Stella jumps to mind, though I'd have to look. But there are also some really common progressions where I just really don't think that sound works well. The dominant resolving up by half-step is a big one where I don't think I'd really go to that sound much at all––that one turns up often enough (Someday My Prince, Slow Boat to China, It Could Happen to You, Like Someone in Love) that I'd think it'd invalidate the rule, rather than be just a passing exception.
I think rules like this tend to have some truth to them in that they describe the really inside sounds, so people apply them and go "hot dawg that's what I've been missing" and never venture away. But in reality they might apply a strong plurality of the time at best, or something, so they can be a bit unhelpful when thought of as rules.
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A line that stinks. Originally Posted by ragman1
Trade that G for a G# and most likely it'll still stink.
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Wouldn't it be better to study well-known players lines by listening to hear what they are doing? And if you are not able to hear it train your ears first until you are able to hear things? Originally Posted by ragman1
BTW even YouTube has several options to reduce the playback speed up to a quarter of the original speed which helps a lot in decyphering lines. What worked for Bird, Barry Harris or the Tristano school (who worked with record players and tape machines in their times, which meant the pitch dropped as well) should be fine for us as well.
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Ah, I see, thanks. Well, a lousy line is a lousy line no matter how 'correct' the notes, I suppose :-) Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Did I suggest only looking at these transcriptions visually and nothing else? Of course you're going to listen to see how they sound. And/or slow it all down to make it clearer. Originally Posted by Bop Head
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I don't really want to reply to this, although I am. You're saying exactly the same thing only taking longer to do it. It won't fill the OP with confidence. My aim was to simplify the whole thing for the OP, not confuse him with detail. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
The backdoor is an unresolved dominant. It might sound resolved but that's irrelevant.
He didn't ask about the V of ii so I didn't bother with it. But in case he notices it, the V before a ii (the ii being that V's i) is better treated as an altered chord because it implies a 7b9 even if it doesn't say so. Personally I tend to use the alt rather than the lyd dom. Or the relevant harmonic minor, of course.
What Alez needs to understand is that these 'rules' on paper are one thing but in practice it's not always practical to apply them like that. That's why I recommend that he looks at transcriptions to see what good players do.
In any case, the more he experiments with this stuff the sooner he'll find out for himself what to do and not be a prisoner of theory rules!
I said that, both before and again here.My second problem is that these rules don't really hold up all that often in practice. There are plenty of these classic lydian dominant cases where this isn't used, and they're pretty abundant all over your usual transcriptions.
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The simplest explanation is that the #11 is actually diatonic to the prevailing key, and an obvious extension to add. Originally Posted by alez
Hi
This article:
Sonny Rollins Secrets to V7 of V7 in But Not For Me Solo • Jazzadvice
Says it's common practice to include the note G# / Ab in the chord D7, key of C as usual.
No distinction of this chord tone being a lydian 4th / #11 or a b5: "But keep in mind that the V7 of V7 is frequently voiced by the chording instrument with a b5 /#11 in the chord structure... As we study examples with the V7 of V7, we’ll just notate it as a standard dominant chord, so be aware that the chord voicings may include the b5 /#11 even when it’s not notated."
You guys are said "chording instrument".
Do you sound this tone? Is there a explanation or justification for it other than it being common practice or using it because you like it? Is that the sound of a particular era in jazz?
Cheers,
Alex
It's really just a way of spicing up the minor key. So on degree bVI of the minor sixth we might have an inversion of a m6 or m7b5 (depending on how you look at it) so in C minor:
Either Dm7b5/Ab or Fm6/Ab (same chord different name)
We then alter the F in the chord to an F#/Gb and we get the Ab7b5 or Ab7#11
This chord later got 'borrowed' into the major key
*In walks boring Baroque man*
The #11 note has been customarily added to that chord since the C18 at least. In wig land we call this, confusingly, an augmented sixth chord (because enharmony) and the specific variation a French sixth.
I think of it as the Mozart chord, but I get into trouble with people who actually know their stuff when I say that, because it goes back further than that.
e.g. play
Cm Gm/Bb Ab7(#11) G
Which is cool and all, but the actual point that this sound has been around for a very long time and was effectively inherited by jazz from the common practice era.
*boring Baroque man is booted out the door before he started blathering on about the Phrygian Cadence and Brahms 4th Symphony*
You can look all of this up if interested. This is undergrad classical harmony. I think Beato has a video about it.
But I would like to point out that the niceties of the classical voice leading aren't so relevant to today's music. We often play Ab7#11 G7 with Gb going to F. Which is BLUES - b5-4. And this is what it is often used to harmonise in jazz tunes from Hoagy Carmichael to Wayne Shorter.
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This is the scale the C18 guys used on it. I don't know what it's called. I don't think they had a name for it.
C Bb Ab G F#Eb D C on Ab7#11 and to the B of G
Instant Mozart baby.
In jazz, aside from the blues the lydian tetrachord 1-2-3-#4 is common to both the bVI7 led Dom and whole tone which are common choices too. Here's an early example.
This chord was SUPER COMMON in 1920s-30s jazz as an 'exotic' sound.
Ellington REALLY REALLY liked this sound
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Indeed. I should probably mention that Barry would teach straight dominant over all dominant chords first. The specific example he brought up in class was the Ab7(#11) in Cherokee (which comes from the melody.) He instructed us to play Ab dominant there and not to worry. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
If you check out KoKo - Bird plays an Eb there every time.
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It's how you hear most, if not all, modern players doing it, although Peter Bernstein (in the tradition perhaps of Coltrane, McCoy and Wayne) loves the diminished dominant scale for the same purpose. The reason as I understand it is to avoid major sevenths on dominant chords. If you play Ab dominant scale on D7 you have a cheeky Db on that D7 chord. How much you care about this will depend on your style - maj7's are common on dominants in bop where these chords are less colouristic and more functional and dissonant. Barry actually specifically pointed it out in his teaching and taught Bmaj7 as a sub for G7 for example. Originally Posted by alez
That said, for bVI7#11 specifically, I get the impression that fragments at least of lydian dominant are fairly common choice throughout jazz history. Out of Nowhere is another good example (uses notes F G A Bb over Eb7). I would say in this tune and I'll Never Be the Same Again above, the character of this chord is somewhat colouristic and impressionistic. I really don't know enough about Debussy to say, but people often talk about the bVI7#11 chord in relation to him. Anyone?Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-02-2024 at 06:09 AM.
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The title of the thread is: Originally Posted by Christian Miller
G# / Ab in D7, key of C
Neither D7, nor its #11, are diatonic to the key of C.
The fact that it's 'been around a long time and lots of people use it' is irrelevant to the question.
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