Blues for Alice 11th bar

[GuyBoden]

I've always thought you had good ears. But, that's the best I've heard you play Ragman, well done.

[kris]

557 Standards is a useful collection of Great American Songbook tunes but I wouldn't rely on it for accuracy when it comes to a Charlie Parker head. Many of these older collections are rife with errors. The original Real Book is infamous for the number of mistakes it contains. They even printed an addendum in a later version with a bunch of corrections.

Did you listen to the isolated track, Kris? That's your most reliable source.

Here's another that I just came across: in my copy of Henry Martin's book, Charlie Parker, Composer there's a photo of the handwritten trumpet part. It's mislabelled as Si-Si (another F blues with similar changes from the same session) and transposed up a tone but Martin has transcribed it into concert key and you can see that the pitches are identical to my own:

Attachment 132319Attachment 132320

Listen to the melody of this version – it's just as I suggested.
In Parker's improvisation background, the piano plays the chord -em7b5 A7 in the second bar

[ragman1]

I've always thought you had good ears. But, that's the best I've heard you play Ragman, well done.

Most kind, Guy. You do realise all is not as it seems, I suppose?

[Christian Miller]

Christian,
You are very prejudiced against Aebersold.
If you have an Omnibook, read what Aebersold writes on the one page at the beginning of the book.
You are attacking me personally and you yourself have no knowledge of why Aebersold wrote this book.
There it is written how to exercise with the Omnibook.
You practice solos from Omnoibook with the original recording made by Chartlie Parker.
There is a list of albums where you can find these recordings.
Aebersold gives you a way to practice it.
You work with source material - Parker's recordings.
Parker's recordings are the most important, and the Omnibook helps you with your work.
You must be aware that in addition to the written notes, there is articulation, phrasing, etc.
It is not in the musical notation.
Aebersold suggest, listen to as many of Parker's recordings as possible-he gives the method.
The goal of the Omnibook is not to imitate Parker note by note.This book was not written after.
This is used to analyze and understand Parker's jazz language.
I think this will explain our dispute without sense.
If I were an English language expert, I would write it on one page of paper.
Jesus, what a day.
Best
Kris

Explain to me how I am prejudiced against Aebersold?

I use the Omnibook as a secondary reference source. Because that’s what it is. Having someone else’s work to refer to is very useful here. It’s good to compare notes.

When I transcribe Bird often I find I have a difference of opinion with the book. Often I find myself agreeing with the book after more listening, and sometimes, I find it’s not quite right. Which is normal for just about everything I’ve done where there’s a transcription available.

And similarly PMB has corrected me a couple of times because the man has good ears.

Sometimes transcription can be quite subjective. You think you hear things you don’t. And the omnibook is a product of the analog age where one simply couldn’t listen to the same thing a thousand times like we can today.

So no beef with Jamie. He certainly did his homework.

I do also I think jazz students should transcribe Bird solos themselves because there’s a lot of nuance you get by learning the solos by ear, and it’s the best ear training there is - so there is that, and if he disagrees with that then that is a difference of opinion.

I probably am a bit down on people who say when I point out the Omnibook is not 100% accurate (like all transcription books) I’m being “disrespectful” somehow.

But that’s nothing to do with Aebersold. “Why would anybody object to listening? Listening is what music is all about” to quote the man.

I may paraphrase a bit but that’s because the front cover of mine has fallen off due to heavy use over the years, so I no longer have the text.

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[wolflen]

I had a great insight when Jimi Hendrix said in an interview..about others playing his solos

"..they even copy my mistakes.."

[Christian Miller]

I had a great insight when Jimi Hendrix said in an interview..about others playing his solos

"..they even copy my mistakes.."

Sometimes the mistakes are the best bits.


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[Mick-7]

Here's Jimmy Raney and some boys playing it nice and slow. But if he plays one single note wrong I'M NEVER GOING TO SPEAK TO HIM AGAIN.

I didn't know you converse with the dead, ragman... but I suppose we're all doing this when we play this music.

[ragman1]

So now that's all settled, what about Stella By Starlight? I was always a little confused by which chords to use for the beginning....

This a very old chestnut, Cliff. Essentially there's the original film music which begins with a Bb diminished chord. Then Miles Davis updated it, so to speak, to the chords most people use now which are the Em7b5 - A7b9 version.

There's a long thread here:

Stella by Starlight - The Real Chord Changes

And googling it online will produce various sites and You Tubes dealing with the same thing. Or AI, of course.

[ragman1]

I didn't know you converse with the dead, ragman... but I suppose we're all doing this when we play this music.

Very perceptive, although I've yet to make Jimmy's acquaintance

[kris]

Explain to me how I am prejudiced against Aebersold?

I use the Omnibook as a secondary reference source. Because that’s what it is. Having someone else’s work to refer to is very useful here. It’s good to compare notes.

When I transcribe Bird often I find I have a difference of opinion with the book. Often I find myself agreeing with the book after more listening, and sometimes, I find it’s not quite right. Which is normal for just about everything I’ve done where there’s a transcription available.

And similarly PMB has corrected me a couple of times because the man has good ears.

Sometimes transcription can be quite subjective. You think you hear things you don’t. And the omnibook is a product of the analog age where one simply couldn’t listen to the same thing a thousand times like we can today.

So no beef with Jamie. He certainly did his homework.

I do also I think jazz students should transcribe Bird solos themselves because there’s a lot of nuance you get by learning the solos by ear, and it’s the best ear training there is - so there is that, and if he disagrees with that then that is a difference of opinion.

I probably am a bit down on people who say when I point out the Omnibook is not 100% accurate (like all transcription books) I’m being “disrespectful” somehow.

But that’s nothing to do with Aebersold. “Why would anybody object to listening? Listening is what music is all about” to quote the man.

I may paraphrase a bit but that’s because the front cover of mine has fallen off due to heavy use over the years, so I no longer have the text.

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There are many outstanding musicians who do not do transcriptions of other musicians' solos at all.
I think Gurry Burton is one of them.
Jesse van Ruller seems to have mastered only one solo by Pat Martino from the tune Just Friends.... And that's it.
I don't know how students learn jazz these days.To tell the truth, I'm not interested in it.
Aebersold is a giant among jazz educators.
He helped me a lot when I started playing jazz.
These errors in transcriptions don't matter to me.
It can always be fixed or corrected.
I remember how professional musicians used to fight over one note.
This ended with the end of the jazz band's activity.
It makes no sense.

[Christian Miller]

There are many outstanding musicians who do not do transcriptions of other musicians' solos at all.
I think Gurry Burton is one of them.
Jesse van Ruller seems to have mastered only one solo by Pat Martino from the tune Just Friends.... And that's it.
I don't know how students learn jazz these days.To tell the truth, I'm not interested in it.
Aebersold is a giant among jazz educators.
He helped me a lot when I started playing jazz.
These errors in transcriptions don't matter to me.
It can always be fixed or corrected.
I remember how professional musicians used to fight over one note.
This ended with the end of the jazz band's activity.
It makes no sense.

Kris, let’s circle back and to the origin of this rather winding back and forth, which that you declared PMB made mistakes in his chart, your evidence for which was a chart from a fake book - while PMB pointed to what he’s heard on the record.

I’m at a loss as to your point here.

- Listening to jazz records carefully and actively makes you a worse musician?
- Famous jazz educators are infallible and their transcriptions can be taken as gospel truth and their publications beyond criticism?
- There is no point in learning birds music by ear yourself because it’s all there in the book?

Because none of those things are true.

Not everything is worth doubling down on.

Anyway even if players like Jesse Van Ruller and Peter Bernstein may not have transcribed many solos - some players do, some don’t - not transcribing endless solos does not mean you don’t learn music by ear. And Peter absolutely has a depth of knowledge of the repertoire which putsbus all to shame. And great ears.

I admit I don’t know about JVR. I don’t think it’s possible to be a player at his level without being able to learn music by ear. It’s an important skill for working in the profession. (I’m expected to do it all the time.) And transcription is simply one form of deep, active listening. I’m certain he’s done that in spades.

And as far as Gary Burton goes - he’s a singular talent, and well known for his ears.

To quote a giant of jazz education once more “who would object to listening to music?” Sometimes I feel there’s some on JGO.

Perhaps I’m just lucky, but I work with a players who have great ears and knowledge of music and they make me want to get better at those things.

[joe2758]

I don't listen to jazz tbh bc i feel like it would influence what I play

[PMB]

Listen to the melody of this version – it's just as I suggested.
In Parker's improvisation background, the piano plays the chord -em7b5 A7 in the second bar

Sorry Kris but you're simply wrong regarding the melody. I transcribed the head from that same recording and posted it here nearly 5 years ago (Blues for Alice is wrong in the RB? post #50) without the aid of isolation software or access to the original melody chart from the recording session. I've now provided that aural and visual evidence - see posts #25 and #31- and the main melody notes of my transcription (I added the grace notes that weren't in the chart from the session) correspond exactly. Surely that counts for something whereas at this stage, all you've provided is your opinion.

As for the harmony/piano comping, yes I agree that's a lot looser. There were no chord symbols on the session chart so maybe John Lewis just used his ears and mixed things up. My hunch is that he used E-7 on the head but Em7b5 for most of the comping. On the first head, the piano is buried way back in the mix so hard to make out clearly but on the head out, he definitely plays an E-7:



Christian has already covered my thoughts on your initial accusation and reactions over the course of this post. I understand that English isn't your first language so it must occasionally be frustrating getting your ideas across clearly but maybe just try to tone things down in future. We all make errors of judgement at times (including me) and rather than get defensive, it's usually best to take some time to digest new evidence, contrarian or uncomfortable ideas and aim for a civil conversation about the topic.

By the way, I've heard your clips and I know you're a fine player and musician so that's not in question. I'm also not suggesting that everyone should play my chart exactly as written. My only aim is to provide the most reliable source possible as a stepping off point for further explorations - just like John Scofield, Pete Bernstein, Jesse van Ruller (three of my all-time faves as well) and countless others have done.

[kris]

Sorry Kris but you're simply wrong regarding the melody. I transcribed the head from that same recording and posted it here nearly 5 years ago (Blues for Alice is wrong in the RB? post #50) without the aid of isolation software or access to the original melody chart from the recording session. I've now provided that aural and visual evidence - see posts #25 and #31- and the main melody notes of my transcription (I added the grace notes that weren't in the chart from the session) correspond exactly. Surely that counts for something whereas at this stage, all you've provided is your opinion.

As for the harmony/piano comping, yes I agree that's a lot looser. There were no chord symbols on the session chart so maybe John Lewis just used his ears and mixed things up. My hunch is that he used E-7 on the head but Em7b5 for most of the comping. On the first head, the piano is buried way back in the mix so hard to make out clearly but on the head out, he definitely plays an E-7:



Christian has already covered my thoughts on your initial accusation and reactions over the course of this post. I understand that English isn't your first language so it must occasionally be frustrating getting your ideas across clearly but maybe just try to tone things down in future. We all make errors of judgement at times (including me) and rather than get defensive, it's usually best to take some time to digest new evidence, contrarian or uncomfortable ideas and aim for a civil conversation about the topic.

By the way, I've heard your clips and I know you're a fine player and musician so that's not in question. I'm also not suggesting that everyone should play my chart exactly as written. My only aim is to provide the most reliable source possible as a stepping off point for further explorations - just like John Scofield, Pete Bernstein, Jesse van Ruller (three of my all-time faves as well) and countless others have done.

Sorry PMB,
Everyone here is oversensitive. I've already done it on this forum.
I have to admit that I also have Transcribe! software - I think I've had it for about 20 years or more.
Sorry that I hear otherwise. ...It is very comfortable for me to play on the guitar what I have written.
Besides, I like to listen to the same tunes but recorded by different artists.
I came to the conclusion that each performance differs in details.
Perhaps this is due to the specificity of the instruments/guitar,sax,trumpet,piano/.
First I used Transcribe! and my ears/I don't have perfect pitch/ and then I started checking with different editions - not just real books,etc.
It seemed to me that what I heard on Transcribe! almost coincided with several publications in books/with small mistakes/.I always have doubts about transciribed sheet music and always control it through the use of Transcribe!.I don't know how it is possible that during some jam session my version was the same as the saxophonist's version / head playing in unison/.Perhaps we /me and sax player/made the same mistake or mistakes together.Anything is possible.
Hence my surprise.
I apologize for my lack of gentleness. I will improve for the future.
Best
Kris
ps.
I don't have perfect pitch.Besides, I very rarely play Ch. Parker's tunes.
45 years ago, I played these tunes at every my concert.

[kris]

Explain to me how I am prejudiced against Aebersold?

I use the Omnibook as a secondary reference source. Because that’s what it is. Having someone else’s work to refer to is very useful here. It’s good to compare notes.

When I transcribe Bird often I find I have a difference of opinion with the book. Often I find myself agreeing with the book after more listening, and sometimes, I find it’s not quite right. Which is normal for just about everything I’ve done where there’s a transcription available.

And similarly PMB has corrected me a couple of times because the man has good ears.

Sometimes transcription can be quite subjective. You think you hear things you don’t. And the omnibook is a product of the analog age where one simply couldn’t listen to the same thing a thousand times like we can today.

So no beef with Jamie. He certainly did his homework.

I do also I think jazz students should transcribe Bird solos themselves because there’s a lot of nuance you get by learning the solos by ear, and it’s the best ear training there is - so there is that, and if he disagrees with that then that is a difference of opinion.

I probably am a bit down on people who say when I point out the Omnibook is not 100% accurate (like all transcription books) I’m being “disrespectful” somehow.

But that’s nothing to do with Aebersold. “Why would anybody object to listening? Listening is what music is all about” to quote the man.

I may paraphrase a bit but that’s because the front cover of mine has fallen off due to heavy use over the years, so I no longer have the text.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I

Hi Christian,
But beautiful weather.
Do you also have the sun shining?
Yesterday I played at a jam session and no one knows Parker's tunes.
What is this all about?
We are seriously discussing a few notes of Parker.
It's time to ride a bike to the forest.
All The Best
Kris
ps.
Have a nice holiday.

[PMB]

Apologies accepted Kris and thanks for your explanation about why you felt so strongly about your position.

We can all get a little heated behind our computer keyboards at times!

All the best to you as well,

Paul

[kris]

These backing tracks are really carefully done by a professional musician
Chord changes exactly as I wrote earlier.
Is it mistake?
I'm practicing Blues for Alice with a backing track like this.;

[kris]

This version of Head is deceptively similar to mine/only minimal difference/.

[kris]

Roland Kirk plays the Blues for Alice theme exactly – just like me.
I checked it 6 years ago with Transcribe!.

[PMB]

These backing tracks are really carefully done by a professional musician
Chord changes exactly as I wrote earlier.
Is it mistake?
I'm practicing Blues for Alice with a backing track like this.;

Phil Wilkinson's tracks are the best available. Great guy and musician who lost a couple of fingers on his left hand a couple of years ago and relearned how to play organ. He was also an excellent jazz guitarist but the accident meant he can no longer play guitar.

The changes on the Blues For Alice track are fine. As I mentioned, most players go to E-7b5 in bar 2 for the blowing anyway - it's just the head where you might have a bit of a clash and that's less noticeable with organ. I like how he catches that F/A in bar 7.

[kris]

Phil Wilkinson's tracks are the best available. Great guy and musician who lost a couple of fingers on his left hand a couple of years ago and relearned how to play organ. He was also an excellent jazz guitarist but the accident meant he can no longer play guitar.

The changes on the Blues For Alice track are fine. As I mentioned, most players go to E-7b5 in bar 2 for the blowing anyway - it's just the head where you might have a bit of a clash and that's less noticeable with organ. I like how he catches that F/A in bar 7.

I have a chord changes from the app in front of me...:
7 bar is am7
11-12 bars F6 D7b9 I gm7 C7b9 II

F/A is nice!

[PMB]

I have a chord changes from the app in front of me...:
7 bar is am7
11-12 bars F6 D7b9 I gm7 C7b9 II

F/A is nice!

I didn't know those tracks came with written chord changes (I bought some to support Phil but they're on my desktop rather an app). It might say A-7 but he plays F/A on the first time through at least.

Everyone plays different turnarounds. Ideally, the trick is to play something that works with the G natural in the 2nd half of bar 11. After that, any of the usual options are fair game.

[Christian Miller]

F/A is underrated. All too often it gets thoughtlessly subbed for a A-7 (So III-7 for I6/3)

It works, but it disguises the origin of that chord. Also it’s the main place where you get a b6 on the minor 7 chord, which always sounds like an inverted I chord to me anyway. In the Real Book version of Like Someone in Love for instance.

(I like C E7/B A-7 Cmaj7/G D/F# G7/F C/E A7 etc there)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kris]

I didn't know those tracks came with written chord changes (I bought some to support Phil but they're on my desktop rather an app). It might say A-7 but he plays F/A on the first time through at least.

Everyone plays different turnarounds. Ideally, the trick is to play something that works with the G natural in the 2nd half of bar 11. After that, any of the usual options are fair game.

I have subscribed version of this app.
When you press the square on the right, the chord changes of the tune appear .
This is a very helpful option.

[pauln]