Blues for Alice 11th bar

[CliffR]

What should the chord(s) be over this bar? Quartet has Fb7/D7, typical of a jazz blues, whereas a score I found online has FM7. There is an E natural in the melody here, so I'd think the FM7 is more correct.

[Mick-7]

It's an F triad (the tonic chord), so the E note would be the major 7th, second half of the measure is D7.

Correction: ragman is correct, there is no E in the melody in that bar, but I think they use a major rather than dominant 7th chord as the I chord.

[CliffR]

Hmm. Perhaps the transcription I'm working from is incorrect. Sounds okay to me, but I've yet to try playing it along with the record. It has an E in place of that F.

[PMB]

The Omnibook has an F on the 'and' of beat 2 in bar 11, Voelpel's Charlie Parker for Guitar opts for a D and my transcription contains an E (maybe that's where you picked it up, Cliff).

Guess what? There's nothing there at all! I just isolated the relevant passage and there's not even a hint of an attack in the opening statement of the head. A ghost note occurs at the same place in the following bar (btw, it's a D not G as written in the Omnibook) so it's worth comparing the two to hear the difference:

However, there is clearly an E in the closing statement of that melodic fragment and it's repeated a number of times in the fade out so it's pretty safe to assume that's what was intended in the opening as well (I've slowed it down to highlight the E):

Stream Blues For Alice (Ending) by PMB | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Bird often treated the opening and first chord in a blues turnaround as major. In this case, an E would be a reasonable choice. For the blowing sections, it can all be up for grabs.

If a seasoned jazz musician landed on an E while an accompanying instrument played an F7 and found it undesirable, they may instinctively go for something like an E-G-F enclosure to make the choice sound intentional. In the case of the Quartet app, the accompanying chord is known in advance - one reason that many pros have reservations about backing tracks.

[garybaldy]

I've seen it Am7/ Dm11/ Gm7
with 2nd half of 2nd beat of melody being an Enat.
ie Am7 = Fmaj7, Dm11 includes melody note. As most or all of you already know!

[CliffR]

The Omnibook has an F on the 'and' of beat 2 in bar 11, Voelpel's Charlie Parker for Guitar opts for a D and my transcription contains an E (maybe that's where you picked it up, Cliff).

Guess what? There's nothing there at all! I just isolated the relevant passage and there's not even a hint of an attack in the opening statement of the head. A ghost note occurs at the same place in the following bar (btw, it's a D not G as written in the Omnibook) so it's worth comparing the two to hear the difference:

However, there is clearly an E in the closing statement of that melodic fragment and it's repeated a number of times in the fade out so it's pretty safe to assume that's what was intended in the opening as well:

Stream Blues For Alice (Ending) by PMB | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Bird often treated the opening and first chord in blues turnaround as major. In this case, an E would be a reasonable choice. For the blowing sections, it can all be up for grabs.

If a seasoned jazz musician landed on an E while an accompanying instrument played an F7 and found it undesirable, they may instinctively go for something like an E-G-F enclosure to make the choice sound intentional. In the case of the Quartet app, the accompanying chord is known in advance - one reason that many pros have reservations about backing tracks.

Thanks Paul for the detailed response. I actually got the transcription from MuseScore. Apologies to Christian who originally encouraged me to learn it by ear a couple of years ago. I wonder what I came up with on my own?

[AllanAllen]

Real Book has a iii vi ii V starting there. Specifically A-7 D-7 at bar 11. That's got your E natural.

I need to put in some work on this. I learned the melody a while ago, but never got into the changes.

[PMB]

Thanks Paul for the detailed response. I actually got the transcription from MuseScore. Apologies to Christian who originally encouraged me to learn it by ear a couple of years ago. I wonder what I came up with on my own?

No worries, Cliff. Here's my transcription from a few years ago with the 'E' in question now in parentheses!

[PMB]

Real Book has a iii vi ii V starting there. Specifically A-7 D-7 at bar 11. That's got your E natural.

I need to put in some work on this. I learned the melody a while ago, but never got into the changes.

Either Fmaj7 or A-7 will work there (Fma9 = A-7/F). F6 is also fine and accounts for both the I and vi so a simple version of that turnaround would be F6 | C7 |. Turnarounds are rarely played the same way, especially in the blowing sections of actual performances.

Even when the E is included as in the outro, it doesn't have to be reflected in the prevailing chord especially when the note in question is an eighth note that occurs on an offbeat as it does here. Barry Harris considered major 6ths as the basic quality with the 7th step a borrowed note of the scale.

[CliffR]

Well, it was from my old Real Book so you're probably right, especially if it's on the record. One assumes, therefore, that the chord on the record at that point is an FM7. Hopefully :-)

Pretty sure I've heard/seen instances where Bird places a major 7th note over a dominant.

[supersoul]

For what it's worth, Aebersold says A-7 D7 | G-7 C7

[CliffR]

No worries, Cliff. Here's my transcription from a few years ago with the 'E' in question now in parentheses!

Many thanks! I see you've transcribed the grace notes that the version I was working on omitted. Nice!

[kris]

No worries, Cliff. Here's my transcription from a few years ago with the 'E' in question now in parentheses!

There are a lot of mistakes here.

[CliffR]

Paul (PMB) posted a slowed-down version of the ending up thread, which is a repeat of this phrase. It's still a very quiet note, but I think I'll trust the ears of the professional musician and transcriber.

[AllanAllen]

Either Fmaj7 or A-7 will work there (Fma9 = A-7/F). F6 is also fine and accounts for both the I and vi so a simple version of that turnaround would be F6 | C7 |. Turnarounds are rarely played the same way, especially in the blowing sections of actual performances.

Even when the E is included as in the outro, it doesn't have to be reflected in the prevailing chord especially when the note in question is an eighth note that occurs on an offbeat as it does here. Barry Harris considered major 6ths as the basic quality with the 7th step a borrowed note of the scale.

Years ago, I noticed there was a major 7th in the melody of St. Louis Blues and I was released from the restrictions I had learned about M7 over blues. Different path, same conclusion.

This is me trying to agree with you. In case my rambling is unclear.

[Christian Miller]

I would say it’s F6 and the seventh is up to the melody/soloist.

I think for blues for Alice it might be a plain old F chord on the original

Blues for Alice is basically a blues that goes to Dm. (I call it a ‘church blues’ because that move to relative minor sounds churchy.)

Everything else is fairly standard - the bIII- is often heard in bebop blues as well.

From the recording I make the comping changes out to be:

F | E-7 A7 | D- | C-7 F7
Bb7 | Bb-7 | A-7 (or F/A) | Ab-7
G-7 | C7 | F | G-7 C7

PMB’s chart incorporates the melodic notes into the symbols which I don’t tend to do.

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[Christian Miller]

Years ago, I noticed there was a major 7th in the melody of St. Louis Blues and I was released from the restrictions I had learned about M7 over blues. Different path, same conclusion.

This is me trying to agree with you. In case my rambling is unclear.

The older jazz recordings of blues are quite major key. Take the melody of West End blues for instance

You get the 7th in bar 4 and the minor third on the 4th chord

It’s interesting how Bird to kind of sticks to this


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[Christian Miller]

Real Book has a iii vi ii V starting there. Specifically A-7 D-7 at bar 11. That's got your E natural.

I need to put in some work on this. I learned the melody a while ago, but never got into the changes.

Real book changes aren’t good imo

They have to make everything into a II-V

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[AllanAllen]

Real book changes aren’t good imo

They have to make everything into a II-V

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It’s just a place to start.

[PMB]

There are a lot of mistakes here.

Compared to Real Books or the original recording?

[PMB]

From the recording I make the comping changes out to be:

F | E-7 A7 | D- | C-7 F7
Bb7 | Bb-7 | A-7 (or F/A) | Ab-7
G-7 | C7 | F | G-7 C7

Yes, I'll go with that for simplicity's sake.

[PMB]

I went for F/A in bar 7 as that's what John Lewis is hitting on the piano in most choruses.

[kris]

Compared to Real Books or the original recording?

It seems to me that there are different notes in the original version from the recording.
I used to transcribe it.
If I find it in my archive, I'll post it here.

[kris]

[PMB]

With all due respect Kris, I think you'll find many more errors in your chart.

It should be an E-7 in bar 2, the B natural you're hearing in bar 7 is played by the trumpet - Bird plays the G. The lower notes in bars 8 & 12 are Eb and D respectively not Gb and F for both the opening and closing heads.

As for bar 11, I've already provided aural evidence that nothing's actually played on the 'and' of beat 2 in bar 11. I notated a ghosted E as that is what's played for the same figure in the outro.

I transcribed this tune before I owned any isolation software but confirmed the deviations from your chart and most Real Book transcriptions yesterday after isolating and slowing down the track. Check the audio file below.

By the way, Bird also plays a triplet in bar 3 in the opening head but plays it as I've written in my chart for the closing head: