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No I don’t think those are the changes
Originally Posted by kris
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05-23-2026 04:19 AM
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This is version from "557 Standadrs" book.Almost the same as my version.
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Everyone plays at jam sessions such changes. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Let's not joke.
Could it be that musicians better than me played bad changes.
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I checked out Blues for Alice in the renowned Charlie Parker Omnibook.
The notes are identical to my version. Chord changes almost the same.
Bars 11-12...chords F7 I gm7 C7 I
I play the classic turnaround Fmaj7 dm7I gm7 C7 I
....sometimes instead of dm7 I play D7alt
Best
Kris
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You said rather imperiously said PMB made "mistakes". So if we are going to play that game, I will do it back to you. Originally Posted by kris
The changes you cited are the ones I was taught as a baby jazzer. (I think those II V's are there for pedagogical reasons - not because that what was played.)
Yes it's absolutely the case the really great musicians change chords (and melodies) of songs all the time. Miles was notorious for this. And it is very true that a lot of the available changes in popular sources aren't accurate to the recordings. As to whether or not that's "right" - well I'm not going to have a meltdown if someone plays them on a jam session, lol. I know what people play, and I can be a team player.
(I can even make suggestions about changes without being a total jerk. Hard to believe, I know haha.)
It's good not to be thoughtless about it, don't you think? To check out what was on the records? Isn't that what being a musician is - to listen?
Otherwise you are just uncritically perpetuating other people's editorial decisions (or transcription errors).
This is an ongoing conversation about more or less every tune. And it really is everything. Take something as basic as the 12 bar blues. Jazz edu doesn't teach the changes for tunes like Billie's Bounce right either - if by right we mean 'what was played on the records.' It was a bone of contention with Barry Harris. The first chord of BB is NOT F7, for instance. It's not A-7 D7 in bar 8, it's A-7 Ab-7. And so on.
I would rather hope carefully listening to the recorded history of jazz is not a claim to fame?
In terms of my own feelings about them, I think the Real Book style changes you posted are just very busy. Rather like Rhythm Changes, it's best to chunk things down in practice.
There's also a confusion about the purpose of chord symbols often. How we write down changes is worth a thought. Should we reflect literally what the piano is are playing? Or should we reflect melody notes in the chords (the modern practice)? How about inversions played by the bass?
In the OG Real Book it varies (probably from contributor to contributor.)
The editorial style of the New Real Book, for instance is consistent example of what I think of as 'modern standard practice' - which is to reflect the harmony of the bass, piano and melody as much as possible into one chord symbol. This is sometimes subtly different from the composer's own lead sheets which were referenced in the writing of that book - for example in the case of Wayne Shorter's autograph lead sheet for 'Footprints'.
I don't always agree with this practice, although I understand it and appreciate why they did it like this.
So that's all by the by, but I actually feel teaching the changes as played on Bird's records might help with teaching the blues. People getting hung up on the chord quality of the I chord in Blues for Alice for example - when actually it's no different from Bird's blues heads in general. That's an artefact of the way chord qualities and blues are taught to beginners today.
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557 Standards is a useful collection of Great American Songbook tunes but I wouldn't rely on it for accuracy when it comes to a Charlie Parker head. Many of these older collections are rife with errors. The original Real Book is infamous for the number of mistakes it contains. They even printed an addendum in a later version with a bunch of corrections.
Did you listen to the isolated track, Kris? That's your most reliable source.
Here's another that I just came across: in my copy of Henry Martin's book, Charlie Parker, Composer there's a photo of the handwritten trumpet part. It's mislabelled as Si-Si (another F blues with similar changes from the same session) and transposed up a tone but Martin has transcribed it into concert key and you can see that the pitches are identical to my own:
Last edited by PMB; 05-23-2026 at 06:08 AM.
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You realise the Omnibook has errors in it as well? I mean it's not surprising, it's a massive project by one guy. Originally Posted by kris
And during the publishing process for any of these things you obviously don’t get someone checking through the transcriptions. Obviously this doesn’t happen. So there’s always going to be errors in published sources.
Because, unlike classical music, jazz is an oral tradition, not a written tradition. The definitive sources are always the records and everyone will tell you that.
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Play as you wish. I checked how other jazz giants play Blues for Alice. Everyone plays the way they like it and no one argues about the fact that Parker played F7 in this place.
It's ridiculous. I also checked Parker's versions and played saxophone parts with him in unison probably 6 years ago - it seemed to me that it was correct.Maybe I missed something or I'm deaf.
I'm not a faithful copy of Charlie Parker and never will be.
45 years ago, I played and copied Parker a lot.It's brilliant what he left behind.
Currently I play my own compositions completely different from Ch. Parker's style.
I don't have time to check Parker's version too much today because it's my wife's name day.
Greetings
Kris
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M.Brecker once said that his solo sounds great and added that it was the result of his mistake haha Originally Posted by Christian Miller
So sometimes mistakes are positive...
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Maybe listen to Scof play Parker's tunes. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
These are interpretations.
Besides, Scofield doesn't want it to sound like Parker.
I don't know if we understand each other...?
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Here's Jimmy Raney and some boys playing it nice and slow. But if he plays one single note wrong I'M NEVER GOING TO SPEAK TO HIM AGAIN.
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+1
I've always appreciated Ragman's intelligence.
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When Sco taught a jazz course, the first thing he did was got everyone to learn a Lester Young solo by ear. Originally Posted by kris
He’d tell you to go to the source first
And ain’t none of us got time to do this for every tune, but when knowledgable people correct me from the standpoint of the recordings - which they do fairly often (and I have to say it’s usually cats from New York) I take it on board, and try not to resent it… (sometimes easier said than done.)
More knowledge is better, no? It’s like how the real standards guys go back to the original sheet music arrangement of track the evolution of the tune. Doesn’t mean they play it that way.
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This is probably obvious for a professional. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Please, some respect for the author of the book Ch.P Omnibook.
This book was written when there were no computers or the Internet.
Nowadays, people have an easier task.They have easy access to complicated software, and yet they make mistakes and count money.
'Omnibook' has always been a starting point for me. Despite these mistakes, it is powerful knowledge.
I think I had a cassette tape with Parker's recording somewhere... I think it was an addition to the book.
Learn all of Parker's solos with the Omnibook and you'll be a genius.
But don't use a computer – it's going to be a challenge.
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Intelligent maybe, but prone to Originally Posted by kris
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Aebersold did the work, which I do respect. More so than those who cite the text as if it’s a primary source, and feel this misplaced compulsion to defend his honour when I say it’s not definitive. Originally Posted by kris
Saying that someone undertook a massive project and inevitably made some mistakes because he is a human being like the rest of us is not disrespect. Everyone makes mistakes. Einstein made mistakes.
(What made him different to the many jazz players who did the same work for themselves is that he found a way to monetise it.)
The person who reads the Omnibook is not the same as the person who wrote it. These documents aren't holy scripture. They aren’t even a primary source.
You'll definitely be a better musician at the end of it.This book was written when there were no computers or the Internet.
Nowadays, people have an easier task.They have easy access to complicated software, and yet they make mistakes and count money.
'Omnibook' has always been a starting point for me. Despite these mistakes, it is powerful knowledge.
I think I had a cassette tape with Parker's recording somewhere... I think it was an addition to the book.
Learn all of Parker's solos with the Omnibook and you'll be a genius.
But don't use a computer – it's going to be a challenge.
And obviously, it's good practice to have an ongoing transcription project at any given time. It's also good to compare you work with other people's. Sometimes you'll correct your mistakes - but sometimes you'll spot theirs.
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Feels like you are shifting the goalposts on this one Originally Posted by kris
You said PMB made mistakes. Now you’ve pivoted to saying I’m disrespecting Jamie Aebersold (heaven forfend!)
I would contend that even if PMB or I made mistakes (which I don’t think he is) we are referring to primary sources. Real books and published transcriptions are not primary sources for Parker’s music. Recordings are.
Any jazz musician would tell you that in so many words. Including Jamie Aebersold in his foreword to the bloody Omnibook.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 05-23-2026 at 08:44 AM.
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Christian,
You are very prejudiced against Aebersold.
If you have an Omnibook, read what Aebersold writes on the one page at the beginning of the book.
You are attacking me personally and you yourself have no knowledge of why Aebersold wrote this book.
There it is written how to exercise with the Omnibook.
You practice solos from Omnoibook with the original recording made by Chartlie Parker.
There is a list of albums where you can find these recordings.
Aebersold gives you a way to practice it.
You work with source material - Parker's recordings.
Parker's recordings are the most important, and the Omnibook helps you with your work.
You must be aware that in addition to the written notes, there is articulation, phrasing, etc.
It is not in the musical notation.
Aebersold suggest, listen to as many of Parker's recordings as possible-he gives the method.
The goal of the Omnibook is not to imitate Parker note by note.This book was not written after.
This is used to analyze and understand Parker's jazz language.
I think this will explain our dispute without sense.
If I were an English language expert, I would write it on one page of paper.
Jesus, what a day.
Best
Kris
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I'll answer this again (last time). I'm not an angry person. I occasionally get frustrated and impatient with what I see as nonsense, skulduggery, and stuff like that, and can be pretty blunt. But that's not the same as angry in that sense. The jails are full of folks who have anger which is nurtured and erupts and is highly destructive. It's a dangerous thing to have. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Intelligent maybe, but prone to
Forgive me saying so but our contretemps is long gone, at least for me. I let it go and until you mentioned it now I'd completely forgotten about it. That's the truth. But, since you've resurrected it, here we are and I'm saying the same things again. I'm not carrying it over but I'm afraid you are, it's still simmering in you. There's nothing I can do about it, it's your affair.
You forget I tried to help you. I explained it as best I could but you decided to go elsewhere. I'm not sure even now that you're clear on what you wanted. If you'd understood the A/C# answer you'd never have changed it to an F#m. You may have changed the lead sheet but whether you've understood why it's an acceptable answer rather than a passing chord I don't know. Actually both are 'right' but some prefer one to the other, that's all.
Anyway, enough. It's gone, it's yesterday's news, so let it be so. And if you can't let it go you must find out why. It's not the other person's fault.
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At least he is one of the brave ones who is not afraid to publish his recordings . Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Intelligent maybe, but prone to
Others most often talk and don't publish – they're afraid...?
Each of us here lives in 'our own jazz world".
That's cool.
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Yes :-) Originally Posted by kris
You'll be okay. I don't want to join in but it's surely safer to go back to the recordings bearing in mind they may play it different ways at different times. So what do we do then?
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Best wishes to your wife, Kris.
I bet you can't play this as high as me. I had to use my mandolele, it was very difficult.
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This is very nice Ragman.Great stuff! Originally Posted by ragman1
My wife wishes you health and all the best.
Thanks
Best
kris
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So now that's all settled, what about Stella By Starlight? I was always a little confused by which chords to use for the beginning....
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I advise you to listen to your favorite artist. Originally Posted by CliffR
And as part of the hearing training exercise, write down the appropriate chords.
It works for me.
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