Caravan analysis C7b9 or C9

[AllanAllen]

I've been playing Carvan with my group for a while and when I solo, I usually think of lines around the C7b9 chord. I was surprised to hear Kenny Burrell comping a C9 riff in the A section of this recording. How is it the nat. 9 and b9 both work here?

[mr. beaumont]

Caravan is a C7 to Db7 vamp really. It's not a static C7b9 chord.

[wolflen]

get the sheet music... I found several versions in Fminor

The several arrangements I reviewed have a Db dim (C7b9) (E G Bb Db) as the first chord going into a C7 ..C9 would work depending on how its voiced (Im sure Kenny can make it work)
as the melody notes align within the chord structure..the notes for C7 would not mind a C9 in the Section A.

There are some notes that imply melodic minor and Emi7b5 =C9 resolves nicely to Fmi6

[Cunamara]

No analysis here, just an awesome solo performance:

[Christian Miller]

Wes plays C9 as well.

I think people had a looser idea of dominant chords. Now everyone follows the numbers or what the melody suggests.

[AllanAllen]

Caravan is a C7 to Db7 vamp really. It's not a static C7b9 chord.

I’ve been vamping C7b9 Db°, but that’s basically the same chords.

x3232x
x4535x

[AllanAllen]

get the sheet music... I found several versions in Fminor

The several arrangements I reviewed have a Db dim (C7b9) (E G Bb Db) as the first chord going into a C7 ..C9 would work depending on how its voiced (Im sure Kenny can make it work)
as the melody notes align within the chord structure..the notes for C7 would not mind a C9 in the Section A.

There are some notes that imply melodic minor and Emi7b5 =C9 resolves nicely to Fmi6

yeah it’s not really in F- soloing that sounds bad to me, hitting the C7b9 tones sounds right.

I tried natural 9 tonight and didn’t like it. Wonder what KB does in his solo.

[AllanAllen]

Wes plays C9 as well.

I think people had a looser idea of dominant chords. Now everyone follows the numbers or what the melody suggests.

I agree, lots of the #11 b13 stuff seems to get in the way of the melody or soloist. At least, when you’re hitting those on the high strings.

[ragman1]

C7b9 D°

You mean Dbo but it sounds good. And you've got x5656x for Fm6 if you want.

But what notes are you going to use over it all?

[AllanAllen]

You mean Dbo but it sounds good. And you've got x5656x for Fm6 if you want.

But what notes are you going to use over it all?

Thanks, I fixed it.

You’re going to love this, I pretty much use C Db Eb E F F# G A Bb. I like to hit that b9 a lot, gives the lines an exotic sound. over the F- I like to go down F E Eb D so I’ll do a descending riff. Helps highlight where I think I am in the form to the band.

The bridge I think of as a moving blues, or I do some kind of arpeggios following the chords. I‘ll take a motif through the changes here too.

This is all a work in progress, I’m going to pull some lines from the KB version above and see what he did.

Coincidentally, I found that version when I checked out his Autumn in New York from the thread you started on that tune. So thanks for that. I like this caravan a lot.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Just came across this version:

[Christian Miller]

I meant to say Wes plays the major dominant/mixolydian tonality a lot in his solo. Comping can be shells.


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[AllanAllen]

I meant to say Wes plays the major dominant/mixolydian tonality a lot in his solo. Comping can be shells.


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That’s how I understood it. Wes’ Caravan is cooking.

[AllanAllen]

Just came across this version:

That camera work is making me nauseated.

[ragman1]

To be fair, it's far from just C9. It's also C9, Db9, C7b9, C7#9, Go, C#o, Eo, C7alt, and so on.

But there is a fair dose of G mel m at the beginning of the solo. Then C7b9 and C7alt. I suppose it's one way of getting away from a constant stream of 'exotic' Arabic sounds, even if it's the basic F harm m.

Incidentally, on the first ever recording the bass goes Db-C-Db-C a lot so the chords may be vamping between Db7 and C7. It's a great version.

[pingu]

Mind completely blown baby

[Reg]

Yea Allan.... there are many ways to play the tune...

Different night, different players.... different results.
The only real requirement is to have some type of harmonic organization that is implied and at least be able to Imply that while your playing the tune.....

Last night... I used the "triad start thing" with a Dotted quarter... Dotted Quarter.. Quarter rhythm. ( not Triplets)

/ C C C / Db Eb C / C / C /...... (all triads)

Then on 2nd 4 bars 1st inversions
and on 3rd 4 bars... start like 1st then set up "B" section

This opens up the Harmonic min with added #9 option.

Then on 2nd "A".... went to 9th chords... same rhythm pattern... different voicing... (which are going somewhere LOL)

X X 8 7 5 8 for C7
up 1/2 step for Db7 then, C7 again for 2 bars

Long story short... I also start using subs.

Like for / C7 / Db7 Eb7 /

I start subbing the related II-7 chord of Db7 and Eb7.... there are lots of option for the soloist or Me to go when soloing

Last week I played a Latin version of tune.... G-7 C7 montuno style.. It get pretty smokin even though very vanilla.

Audiences seem to like it when the tune goes there for a different soloist....

Hell I'll try and call tune tonight at gig.... the band is pretty straight but great drummer...LOL If I can remember... I'll turn on phone LOL

[AllanAllen]

To be fair, it's far from just C9. It's also C9, Db9, C7b9, C7#9, Go, C#o, Eo, C7alt, and so on.

But there is a fair dose of G mel m at the beginning of the solo. Then C7b9 and C7alt. I suppose it's one way of getting away from a constant stream of 'exotic' Arabic sounds, even if it's the basic F harm m.

I don’t see what’s wrong with playing a chorus of Arabic sounds, then a swing break. A lot of solos on caravan seem to go very vanilla and ignore the theme of the song. Might as well stick to rhythm changes and Basie Blues if aren’t going to lean into the tune.

[AllanAllen]

Yea Allan.... there are many ways to play the tune...

Different night, different players.... different results.
The only real requirement is to have some type of harmonic organization that is implied and at least be able to Imply that while your playing the tune.....

Last night... I used the "triad start thing" with a Dotted quarter... Dotted Quarter.. Quarter rhythm. ( not Triplets)

/ C C C / Db Eb C / C / C /...... (all triads)

Then on 2nd 4 bars 1st inversions
and on 3rd 4 bars... start like 1st then set up "B" section

This opens up the Harmonic min with added #9 option.

Then on 2nd "A".... went to 9th chords... same rhythm pattern... different voicing... (which are going somewhere LOL)

X X 8 7 5 8 for C7
up 1/2 step for Db7 then, C7 again for 2 bars

Long story short... I also start using subs.

Like for / C7 / Db7 Eb7 /

I start subbing the related II-7 chord of Db7 and Eb7.... there are lots of option for the soloist or Me to go when soloing

Last week I played a Latin version of tune.... G-7 C7 montuno style.. It get pretty smokin even though very vanilla.

Audiences seem to like it when the tune goes there for a different soloist....

Hell I'll try and call tune tonight at gig.... the band is pretty straight but great drummer...LOL If I can remember... I'll turn on phone LOL

Cool Reg, I’d love to hear what you do on it.

[ragman1]

I don’t see what’s wrong with playing a chorus of Arabic sounds, then a swing break. A lot of solos on caravan seem to go very vanilla and ignore the theme of the song. Might as well stick to rhythm changes and Basie Blues if aren’t going to lean into the tune.

Absolutely. I don't think there's anything wrong with it either, I was just describing what Wes was doing, which you said was 'cooking'!

Personally, I prefer to keep it fairly straight, as you say. In fact, I just did one this afternoon... :-)

[Christian Miller]

I don’t see what’s wrong with playing a chorus of Arabic sounds, then a swing break. A lot of solos on caravan seem to go very vanilla and ignore the theme of the song. Might as well stick to rhythm changes and Basie Blues if aren’t going to lean into the tune.

Put some Hijaz in yer Jazz


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[ragman1]

Put some Hijaz in yer Jazz

Hijaz, according to the internet, is Phrygian Dominant which is a mode of harmonic minor. I think we covered that, or I did.

Of course, it won't work if the C7b9 is changed to C9 because of the Db/D clash.

[Christian Miller]

Hijaz, according to the internet, is Phrygian Dominant.

That is very much the sort of thing I would expect the internet to say.

When I went on tour with a Middle Eastern jazz fusion group, we rode in ‘the Hijaz Kar’. Undoubtedly we were fantastically witty and original.


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[ragman1]

The difference between Hijaz and Hijaz Kar is one note, which is the Bb in F harm m becomes a B natural. That's certainly one of the changes one can introduce to embellish the overall effect, although probably not too much. It appears in the melody at bar 8.

Whether it's witty, of course, is something else.

[pingu]

found this

seems to be accurate
quite an achievement ….
well played Paul Burke !

(I’ve worked out my own chord melody
but I found it interesting how Wes
does it , with lots of dim chords)

Ive got some screenshots of the
arrangement for the head if anyone’s
interested