Caravan analysis C7b9 or C9

[garybaldy]

They all sound okay to me except the Ebo at the end of the descending sequence. I also like that as Gb7. Bassist could play Gb or C.

Yes. That Ebo started me off.
It should be a dom7 to Fm. So some form of C7 and being that the melody is a Gb note it has to be a form of V7b5.
I like the repeating V I idea through the 2 bars and the chromatic single shape achieves that and is easy to play. May be musically more logical?
ps so would you play the supposedly transcribed Eo before the Gb7 that we both like? The Eo could be consdered a Gb7b9. Is Gb7b9 to Gb7 a good move there? It's not particularly strong.

[garybaldy]

Trio.

Downside: no one there to cover you up
Upside: no one there to make your thing sound wrong.

Do you.

That's another way of looking at it.

[AllanAllen]

2 chordal instruments can feel restricting. If the bass player does realbook changes to Summertime and I do big band changes, it’s a cool arrangement.

If the piano does real book and I do big band, there’s a lot of very apparent clashing.

[garybaldy]

So Wes moves up a 1/2 step to the Fm (bar 13) from Em. May be Em6 (C#m7b5) to Fm6 (Dm7b5).

[rpjazzguitar]

If you can find something that you like and nobody else likes, maybe that’s the goal

[ragman1]

heh heh.. :-)

[Christian Miller]

2 chordal instruments can feel restricting. If the bass player does realbook changes to Summertime and I do big band changes, it’s a cool arrangement.

If the piano does real book and I do big band, there’s a lot of very apparent clashing.

Depends on the pianist.. it's a tricky one. If the piano player is used to doing trio Bill Evans type stuff and not a lot else it can be unbearable, but there are some pianists who really know how to comp.

For whatever reason, I tend to play without other chordal instruments most of the time.

[AllanAllen]

I'm the weak link, not having big enough ears to hear what's happening... well, I could hear the changes were different so I got real sparse real quick.

[rpjazzguitar]

Coordinating piano and guitar deserves its own thread.

Maybe I'll start one.

[Christian Miller]

Coordinating piano and guitar deserves its own thread.

Maybe I'll start one.

I’ll just post the word ‘ears’ until I get banned from the forum

One thing I would say which is not the word ears is that the guitar is more tonally similar to piano obviously that the sax, so it’s more important that the piano keeps out of the way of the guitar register. And of course vice versa.

Anyway one should be able to discern different qualities of dominant chord and if you can’t - keep it simple

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[rpjazzguitar]

Some things come to mind re guitar/piano. But, it's hard to generalize -- it's dependent on a lot of situational variables.

1. Leave space for the other.

2. Don't play things the other guy can't follow.

3. Don't both do the same thing.

4. If you're the guitarist and the piano is playing a busy "stick and jab" comp, it may be difficult to contribute. I think a key is to play predictibly and, probably, sparsely. Freddie Green might work. Charleston rhythm might work. Straightforward arpeggios in rhythm might work. Etc. You need a repertoire of moves that will work in that situation.

5. I don't know if a guitarist has ever leaned over to a pianist and said "more left hand". Some pianists will solo right handed, but most won't. So, the guitar has to deal with the pianist's left hand. Between the left hand and the bass, where does the guitar fit? Sparse? Octave higher? EQ'ed so it emphasizes higher frequencies? Play loud and bury the left hand?

6. If the pianist is playing rhythmically and predictably, then the guitarist can focus on ornamention (and vice versa). Depending on the situation and how sparsely the pianist is playing there may be room for half notes anticipating the changes, (meaning you play the chord an 8th note early or something like that), arpeggios, palm muted figures, superimposed rhythms, or whatever.

7. There are some situations/players where it just won't work well.

One anecdote about #2 above. I played, years ago, with a pianist, nice guy, knew a lot of tunes, played well. But, he didn't like to read and he played the tunes the way he knew them and reharmonized as much as he pleased. I was reading from the Real Book.

We'd be playing along and suddenly he'd change the harmony signficantly. It might be something like going up a half step for a ii V and then coming back down. OK. I could hear that. But, it might be something I couldn't figure out on the fly and, next chorus, it might be something else I couldn't figure out and so on.

My experience is that it's hard to improve your ear to the point where you can identify some out harmony on the fly. There are ways to work on it, but it seems to me there's a gift involved and some people get a paperback book and others get a new car.

One solution: practice less and use the time to market a band. When you're the leader, it will all be easier.

[ragman1]

Caravan analysis C7b9 or C9

We seem to have gotten away from the point of the thread. This tune is written in Fm. The melody has no natural D's in it. It's either played with a C7/Db7 vamp or a C7b9. Nothing much wrong with a straight C7 either.

Re. the Wes version, I've only found one transcription, which is not brilliant but is accurate enough in its own way. The C9 is fingered with the C at the top in conjunction with Db9. But that is only for the melody and includes C7b9 and a ton of other chords

Note the solo is over a basic C7.

The go-to scale in Caravan is F harmonic minor. Of that there's no doubt at all. The whole 'Arabic' sound is between the Db and the natural E but there are other scale choices like the diminished and wholetone that can make the tune irresistible. Better to explore them than try to emulate Wes Montgomery and make a mess of it.

In any case, the most important part of the tune is the pulsating rhythm. That's what'll get the audience going. But if you're insistent on getting extremely musical (!) try this:

[JazzPadd]

4. If you're the guitarist and the piano is playing a busy "stick and jab" comp, it may be difficult to contribute. I think a key is to play predictibly and, probably, sparsely. Freddie Green might work. Charleston rhythm might work. Straightforward arpeggios in rhythm might work. Etc. You need a repertoire of moves that will work in that situation.

I find myself in this situation with some pianists, usually when playing casually, often at jam sessions, and playing with busy pianists taught me restraint and dynamics. Sometimes, as you said, a Freddie Green kind of thing at near acoustic volume can fill in the backbeat a bit without being obtrusive. I like using arpeggios, too, at low volumes, but I also agree that it's fine to just lay out and let the pianist handle the bulk of comping and I don't really mind that.

Once in a while, with a really great pianist and when a tune gets cookin', and they start doing a lot of substitutions, usually with a fast upward movement, I find moving a quartal shape upward chromatically, in parallel with the rhythmic groove at near acoustic volume, actually adds to the momentum without interfering with what's happening in the harmonic departure. But these outside passages, at climactic moments during a really dynamic solo, are usually applied quite sparsely and yet spontaneously and they only worked, in my very limited experience, when the pianist initiates it and I pick up on it and go along for the ride. A sax player that I played with a few years ago likened it to a ski jump; the landing matters.

To add an amusing anecdote, there was one busy pianist who overused sweeping his hand theatrically across the keyboard, upward or downward, usually at the end of a section, and he was very heavy handed to boot so it was LOUD and quite obtrusive. I think he probably hadn't had much experience playing with others, but imparted a sense of drama and often seemed to be enjoying himself. I think for these kinds of tolerances, context matters most.

[garybaldy]

A few years ago I was playing upright in a scratch trad band. There was a new kid on the block - a pianist. Everyone wanted him in their band. He certain knew his way around the keyboard with continual flourishes from one end to the other. He knew the chords. He just didn't know when to stop. I don't know how the banjo player put up with it but it was a paid gig.
The funny thing was, the young lad was given a solo feature so the rest of us went to the bar having a good old chin wag. Some woman in the audience started to have a go at me for talking over the lad's performance. Ofcourse I had to explain to her that as a bass player I had spent the last 45 odd years having people talk over my solos!!

[AllanAllen]

I find myself in this situation with some pianists, usually when playing casually, often at jam sessions, and playing with busy pianists taught me restraint and dynamics. Sometimes, as you said, a Freddie Green kind of thing at near acoustic volume can fill in the backbeat a bit without being obtrusive. I like using arpeggios, too, at low volumes, but I also agree that it's fine to just lay out and let the pianist handle the bulk of comping and I don't really mind that.

Just watch the Pete Bernstein at Emmets Place concert on youtube. He straight up doesn't bother to comp.

[Christian Miller]

The most common thing I do when there’s a piano in non swing/classic big band settings is not to comp. But that normally comes up at jams.

If it’s a proper band it will be clear whether my role is as a harmonist or more as a front line guy (usually but not always the former). Even sometimes for big bands it’s good not to comp, or if possible trade comping duties with the piano. Not every tune suits a Freddie green style.

One chart I played the other night had a written solo guitar intro and piano tacet for the first section while I comped for the sax solo. Nice.

But when I play FG style tend to do the one note walking thing for things like Basie charts, which I think gives the piano more space.

Sometimes you meet a pianist who realises that you might want to comp for a bit. This is nice. It is not something that tends to happen with everyone, usually professionals.

Tbh it’s nice sometimes not to comp even when there is a pianist. Light and shade.


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[rpjazzguitar]

Big band is a special case.

First thing, what is the guitar chart? Often enough, it's the piano chart with the word piano crossed out and guitar written in. It may, or may not, have slash marks. If it doesn't, you can see what the piano is supposed to play. Do they really want a guitar on the tune, or is that just to pretend that the chart is for a four piece rhythm section? Mostly, the guitarist has to figure out his part (the pianist may also) on the fly. When there's a real guitar chart at least you have some direction from the arranger.

If the best thing you can think of to play will make the band sound worse, then laying out is the way to go. I tend to reject that approach. I figure, the band hired me, they want guitar, I brought all this equipment, etc etc, so I'm going to try to figure out something to play.

Then it depends on the music the band is playing. Older style often takes straight Freddie. More modern charts, less so.

What to do first? Position yourself where you can hear the piano and the bass clearly. Second, make sure you've got the entire chart visible (don't ask why I include this). Scan it for the roadmap and then for any guitar specific instructions. If it says "solo" that's you.

Next depends on whether it's a new tune to you or not. But, at some point, you're getting the time from the bass, if there's any ambiguity, while trying to figure out how to complement the piano. You have a repertoire of devices to do that and if none work, you lay out.

One small point: I only use single note comping when I can't execute the changes. I'm not convinced that it's much better than laying out. And, when I've heard Freddie, I hear a multi string thunk possibly with only one string fully sounded. Meaning, he played 3 strings but fully fretted only one. That, btw, is what his website seems to say. That demo by an experienced big band player where he comps one note on the D string, well, he's the expert, but I don't care for the sound.

[Christian Miller]

Big band is a special case.

First thing, what is the guitar chart? Often enough, it's the piano chart with the word piano crossed out and guitar written in. It may, or may not, have slash marks. If it doesn't, you can see what the piano is supposed to play. Do they really want a guitar on the tune, or is that just to pretend that the chart is for a four piece rhythm section? Mostly, the guitarist has to figure out his part (the pianist may also) on the fly. When there's a real guitar chart at least you have some direction from the arranger.

If the best thing you can think of to play will make the band sound worse, then laying out is the way to go. I tend to reject that approach. I figure, the band hired me, they want guitar, I brought all this equipment, etc etc, so I'm going to try to figure out something to play.

Then it depends on the music the band is playing. Older style often takes straight Freddie. More modern charts, less so.

What to do first? Position yourself where you can hear the piano and the bass clearly. Second, make sure you've got the entire chart visible (don't ask why I include this). Scan it for the roadmap and then for any guitar specific instructions. If it says "solo" that's you.

Next depends on whether it's a new tune to you or not. But, at some point, you're getting the time from the bass, if there's any ambiguity, while trying to figure out how to complement the piano. You have a repertoire of devices to do that and if none work, you lay out.

One small point: I only use single note comping when I can't execute the changes. I'm not convinced that it's much better than laying out. And, when I've heard Freddie, I hear a multi string thunk possibly with only one string fully sounded. Meaning, he played 3 strings but fully fretted only one. That, btw, is what his website seems to say. That demo by an experienced big band player where he comps one note on the D string, well, he's the expert, but I don't care for the sound.

Yes that’s how it’s done

There’s many styles of rhythm section and also many styles of rhythm guitar. How I play in a pre war or early band is not the same as how I play in a second testament style thing. Or a modern big band.

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[ragman1]

Hey, Allan, just for interest how are getting on with Caravan? I've been playing with it myself but I won't bore you with my stuff because I'm not entirely convinced of it myself.

I was just reading the thread from the beginning. The Kenny Burrell version uses C9 for the solos. They're all playing C mixo or Gm, or mm, and so on. I've no doubt it's a lot easier for jazz.

I've also found judging the number of bars quite tricky. Hitting the Fm on the nail can be awkward, don't know about you.

[AllanAllen]

To my ear, the important thing though is that he’s not just whacking away at a chord — he’s playing a wicked ostinato pattern. It holds up on its own, and would probably sound good no matter what the melody note was so long as it didn’t conflict rhythmically.

Peter answered my real question here in one sentence.

When I play over it I still think C7b9, emphasizing the b9. Because it's dominant that also gives me b3 b5 and b6 on top of the mixolydian but with a b9 palette. I haven't run out of ideas yet, so I'm sticking with it.

[Christian Miller]

I played C9 on a jam last night and it wasn't an issue. The pianist was excellent though. Good ears.

[ragman1]

I played C9 on a jam last night and it wasn't an issue. The pianist was excellent though. Good ears.

That's been in my mind too. It's the pulse in the backing that's really important. You get the Arab feel in the melody and after that it makes little difference. In any case the Arab sound gets old quickly to our Western ears. Probably needs the nat B to spice it up. Or play C9... no one will complain.

Of course if you just use plain C7 you can play what you like on it.

[joe2758]

Maybe the Db sounds better descending and the D ascending? Like a true melodic minor?

i.e. C D E F
or

F Eb Db C

[ragman1]

And when the illegal immigrants take over there'll be screams of desperation from the floor. A whole bunch of them will leap up and show us how to do it properly. And it'll be gorgeous :-)

[joe2758]

And when the illegal immigrants take over there'll be screams of desperation from the floor. A whole bunch of them will leap up and show us how to do it properly. And it'll be gorgeous :-)

what?