Caravan analysis C7b9 or C9

[Christian Miller]

OK.

If anyone interested in learning something about Middle Eastern music, I can recommend this guy's videos

Mode V of the harmonic minor has always long been musical shorthand for 'the orient' in Western Music. It is used in ME music - in this Arabic system it is called Maqam Hijaz. But it's not the only scale used, and many of them are simply unplayable on equal tempered western instruments. Hijaz is one of the ones that is.

Orientialism obviously seeps in quite early into jazz, Caravan is a good example. It's still a part of bebop actually, and beyond.

[ragman1]

simply unplayable on equal tempered western instruments.

Well, they bring their instruments with them, naturally

[ragman1]

Just watched the video. Bit like curry, innit? They laugh at our stuff, especially when it's served in restaurants.

But they say we wouldn't find the real thing palatable and it could upset our delicate tummies. Which is very likely.

Personally, I'm a sucker for a Bhuna. Luvly jubbly.

[ragman1]

Christian -

I think I'll say what's on my mind. I began by liking, if not admiring, that bloke. He's obviously of good class, multi-lingual, musically very knowledgeable, and so on. But by the end of it I'd changed my mind.

As the video progressed he began to repeat himself endlessly, the F words came out, and he was really attacking Orientialism as though it was designed to lampoon and insult the natives of middle Eastern cultures, like himself. Which, of course, is utter nonsense.

Western films that portray the Middle East are meant for Western audiences. They are neither made by, or made for, the genuine article. They're in English or American and that's all they are. The music is, as he says, only meant to represent another country and culture. It's not supposed to be anything else nor does it pretend to be.

And what is wrong with that? Western audiences wouldn't really know the difference anyway unless they were well-travelled professors or something. So it's natural and inevitable and completely harmless. It simply fulfils a purpose, which is to entertain and convey a flavour.

But our man grows more and more angry as though these composers were deliberately talking down to the East with the intention of belittling their culture. Actually, this is a good example of the sort of bias and prejudice that has its roots in feelings of inferiority and insecurity, which is not created by the West. Here is aggression based on an utter misconception, that the whole thing is deliberate. Which is crazy.

So in the end I'd turned against him, not because of his knowledge, but because of his underlying motives. I thought yes, and when you've finished the video, I can see you popping back to your workshop to put the finishing touches to your next bomb!

So musically interesting but tainted by other divisive and unfortunate motives. Shame. There's a great deal to criticise about the West but this isn't the way to do it.

[joe2758]

I thought yes, and when you've finished the video, I can see you popping back to your workshop to put the finishing touches to your next bomb!

whoa there rein it in

[dasein]

So in the end I'd turned against him, not because of his knowledge, but because of his underlying motives. I thought yes, and when you've finished the video, I can see you popping back to your workshop to put the finishing touches to your next bomb!

And here I was, thinking that you were just a shit player who ran his mouth too much. I didn't realize you were also the fattest, dumbest, most red-faced uncle in Middlesbrough.

So musically interesting but tainted by other divisive and unfortunate motives. Shame. There's a great deal to criticise about the West but this isn't the way to do it.

I'd bet you anything that there are at least two pub waitresses who turn around every time you walk in to hide their weary sighs, but judging by your posts, you're still waiting on that 30 quid from Skybet before you're good for it

[ragman1]

whoa there rein it in

Delighted to rein it in, Joe. I'm not seriously suggesting he actually makes bombs but you never know. It's not usually the uneducated labouring classes that get involved in terrorism, it's generally the educated middle classes and above.

Have you listened to that video all the way through? Honestly? It's supposed to be an educative and interesting talk about real Iranian music as opposed to the Western ideas of it in films, jazz, and so on. But this one degenerated into political anti-Western propaganda delivered with scarcely disguised anger. All based on the misconception that sound-alike desert music was a deliberate jibe at his native culture.

Complete nonsense, and I hope you realise it.

[Christian Miller]

Delighted to rein it in, Joe. I'm not seriously suggesting he actually makes bombs but you never know. It's not usually the uneducated labouring classes that get involved in terrorism, it's generally the educated middle classes and above.

Have you listened to that video all the way through? Honestly? It's supposed to be an educative and interesting talk about real Iranian music as opposed to the Western ideas of it in films, jazz, and so on. But this one degenerated into political anti-Western propaganda delivered with scarcely disguised anger. All based on the misconception that sound-alike desert music was a deliberate jibe at his native culture.

Complete nonsense, and I hope you realise it.

Is it? His point is that it is based on ignorance, or worse a sort of deliberate dumbing down, and I agree. He argues that it’s bad for Westerners because it also talks down to us as well. Which is also true.

I’m struggling to find anything I would call anti-Western. (IIRC doesn’t he say he likes some orientalist music?)

Tbh Hollywood actually does this to all cultures including occidental ones. Take a look at representations of Ireland in Hollywood movies for example. Or the UK for that matter lol. Sometimes we play along because of the tourist industry.

But in the case of ME cultures it’s a lot more pointed because the depictions on screen are most often stereotypical anyway - to the point where no differentiation is made between different ME cultures at all.

So I find little to disagree with in what he says. And if he’s a bit pissed off about, I think it’s understandable. But I also think he’s got a bit of sense of humour about it. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, I think it says more about you tbh.

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[joe2758]

Ireland in Hollywood movies for example. Or the UK for that matter lol.
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I literally picture Mr. Bean if someone says British

[Christian Miller]

I literally picture Mr. Bean if someone says British

I mean it’s an improvement on the reality


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[MinToyTot]

Creamy old England... England and cream...

[ragman1]

Allan -

Back to your thread. I just had to do some kind of video on this for some reason. Just for fun. Sorry about the ghastly quality but I'm stuck with it.

I decided to ditch the Arabian soundalike stuff and used a C7 shell with a latin beat ( a lot of lead sheets actually say 'Latin' on them) so it's really a samba rhythm. Which is okay, I think.

I found counting the bars was hard so I just decided to change chords every few bars. Much easier. There's C dom b9 b13 (aka F harmonic minor), Bb mel and C7alt (C# mel). But there's also a bit of C9 just to prove I'm not prejudiced (I quite liked it). There's some C dim too but there's no wholetone because I forgot. And it's not too long, deliberately.

Have you got a clip of your band doing it? I'd love to see that if you want. I'm sure it'll be much more authentically jazzy than mine.

[AllanAllen]

Here’s one from a recent trio gig.

I thought I had one where I take the head but can’t find it. Maybe the battery died, that happens.

[ragman1]

The camels are restless!

That was great. Let's have some fun :-)