Caravan analysis C7b9 or C9

[Christian Miller]

The difference between Hijaz and Hijaz Kar is one note, which is the Bb in F harm m becomes a B natural. That's certainly one of the changes one can introduce to embellish the overall effect, although probably not too much. It appears in the melody at bar 8.

Whether it's witty, of course, is something else.

That’s not the best way to think about maqamat, apparently it’s all about the Jins (tetrachords)

Needless to say maqamat are not really to do with harmony as traditional Middle Eastern music is completely melodic. But I do enjoy a crap pun.

Otoh if you call it Phrygian dominant the jocks will kick sand in your face. It’s as bad as playing Green Dolphin Street in C.

Mixob9b13 apparently.

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[Christian Miller]

found this

seems to be accurate
quite an achievement ….
well played Paul Burke !

(I’ve worked out my own chord melody
but I found it interesting how Wes
does it , with lots of dim chords)

Ive got some screenshots of the
arrangement for the head if anyone’s
interested

That man has too much hair


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[supersoul]

That man has too much hair


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He needs to put some chorus in his hair and expand it to Metheny proportions

[jads57]

As long as it sounds good,who cares. Why limit yourself to one way of thinking. That’s why we all enjoy different players perspective of playing these great standards.
Much like great conversations with different perspectives!

[AllanAllen]

As long as it sounds good,who cares. Why limit yourself to one way of thinking. That’s why we all enjoy different players perspective of playing these great standards.
Much like great conversations with different perspectives!

I care to know why it sounds good. That’s Why I started the thread.

I never really got an answer on the natural 9 in the intro I posted. The conversation quickly pivoted to solo tools. Which seems to be in line with how guitarists think, “let’s hurry up and get to MY solo” lol.

[Mick-7]

I’ve been vamping C7b9 Db°, but that’s basically the same chords.

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x4535x

The vamp is Db dim.7 (a.k.a., C7b9) to C7 (C9, etc.). Try D harmonic minor - or harmonic major.

[ragman1]

I never really got an answer on the natural 9 in the intro I posted.

I take it this was the question:

How is it the nat. 9 and b9 both work here?

Depends how you play it. You're not playing the C9 and the C7b9 at the same time.

Burrell and Wes did C9 and there was a lot of G mel m going on. The G mel has F#'s in it and sounds altered anyway. But, as I said somewhere else, there was also Db9, C7b9, and lots of diminished chords. Put it all together and it works.

[pamosmusic]

I care to know why it sounds good. That’s Why I started the thread.

I never really got an answer on the natural 9 in the intro I posted. The conversation quickly pivoted to solo tools. Which seems to be in line with how guitarists think, “let’s hurry up and get to MY solo” lol.

Ill take a whack at it.

C9 and Fm6 both have D as a cool color note, so there’s some continuity there.

Also the melody itself only briefly has a Db in it and it resolves right back to the C.

To my ear, the important thing though is that he’s not just whacking away at a chord — he’s playing a wicked ostinato pattern. It holds up on its own, and would probably sound good no matter what the melody note was so long as it didn’t conflict rhythmically.

[ragman1]

Also the melody itself only briefly has a Db in it and it resolves right back to the C.

Yes, but that Db is the very essence of the piece, it pervades it. That's the point, it's not just a little passing note that doesn't matter, it firmly establishes the phrygian feel to the whole thing, probably even the bridge too.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, but that Db is the very essence of the piece, it pervades it. That's the point, it's not just a little passing note that doesn't matter, it firmly establishes the phrygian feel to the whole thing, probably even the bridge too.

Sure Duke Ellington wasn’t in the habit of writing throwaway notes. Point was just that that intro riff is a freight train and you could put any note over it and it would sound good as long as it didn’t clash rhythmically.

For what it’s worth, Bobby Timmons is on this cut so maybe we should ask him.

[supersoul]

It sounds like he's playing a pattern that goes between C and Bb, just major triads.. He's also playing along with the two saxophones, and one of them is playing a riff that goes between an E and a D.

To me it's more about the rhythm feeling. There's Art Blakey, so the rhythmic aspect is going to be strong. The guitar and the saxophones are playing interlocking riffs/claves. Everything is staccato, the notes aren't held long enough to clash with the melody. The whole thing is just a simple tonal color that doesn't get in the way of the trumpet playing the chromatic melody.

Definitely sounds cool!

I wonder who arranged it, or maybe they all made it up in the studio that day.

[AllanAllen]

Thanks everyone, this is insightful. I’m going to try and figure out Reg’s suggestion too and have a few more tools next time I play it.

[Christian Miller]

From a casual listen it sounds like the soloists are also playing more of a C9(13) tonality.

It’s more beboppy that way?

Other than that it sounds good because everyone is listening - listen to the comping.

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[Reg]

Hey Allan... never got a chance to play tune ... had a steel drum show up at the gig that night....

Anyway I remember years ago I use to play off C phy dom. with added #9 or Eb.
C Db Eb E F G Ab Bb
And would use Bb-7 Dorian for the Db7... which became Db7#11 from MM. Need to work with the "G".

Anyway...
I would shred on the C7 using b9 and b13 with the added #9 (old school because there is... or at least implied Nat. 5th or "G" and Bb dorian for the Db7.

I would use Bb dorian.. like blues min. pentatonic licks. Created a Dominant like feel.

Try comping with C7 to Db7 then C9 to Bb-9

X 7 5 5 5 X
X 8 6 6 6 X
X 7 5 5 5 X
"//,,
then

X 7 8 5 5 8 ( or just X X 8 7 5 8)
6 X 6 6 6 8
X 7 5 5 5 8

Basically I was just adding the Nat 7th to F Har. Min ... which makes the V7 chord C7 b9 #9 and b13

C Db Eb E F G Ab Bb... same as above

And I would use C7alt. ( from MM) on 12th bar to get to the F-6 bars 13 - 16.
I used C7 alt because I wanted the option of using the Dorian and MM relationship For the F-6.

Which also set up my options on the "B" section.

It's not that simple etc... there are the organizational rhythmic aspects of how to use these harmonic relationships within the Form or Big Picture.... but audiences seem to always like it.

[AllanAllen]

I was having some fun with 2 bar vamps of | C | Eb Db C| using these grips for C, sliding up for Eb and Db.

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x755xx

Based from your last post.

[ragman1]

I think it's about time someone started playing it rather than talk about it. Most of it seems to centre around the chords on the A section rather than scales and notes, etc.

Allan tends to play solo stuff without a backing track so he could try letting us hear what these chords sound like. I don't know if he can record that to use as a backing because then he can try out the melody and soloing.

To be honest, then we'd get the feeling he was moving on with the tune rather than juggling options all the time. And I know from experience that once what I'm doing is in the public view its goodness or badness is suddenly revealed. Especially to the player himself :-)

[AllanAllen]

Here's me trying to cram all the tools into one round. I forgot the Kenny Burrell riff.

[AllanAllen]

There's got to be an app where I can record another video onto this one. I just don't know what it is. I played the melody over this and it seemed fine to me. I'd do less notes if there was bass and less rhythmic stuff if there was drums.

[Christian Miller]

Not being funny, but if I was interested in learning what someone was doing I would study exactly what they are doing rather than jumping into a demonstration of it myself.

Anyway I daresay Allen is on the case! (With the former.)

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[John A.]

There's got to be an app where I can record another video onto this one. I just don't know what it is. I played the melody over this and it seemed fine to me. I'd do less notes if there was bass and less rhythmic stuff if there was drums.

I don't know of a program allows allows overdubbing a new video "track" onto an existing video in one fell swoop (which doesn't mean there isn't one, but I haven't run across it). I've done the equivalent (in multiple steps) by playing back the rhythm guitar part (and/or other backing part(s), and recording a second video while playing along with that. I capture audio separately in a DAW and mix that down to single audio file. I then marry the two videos and the audio mix in video editing software. I do all this on a computer (I don't think it's do-able on a phone). If you want the detailed steps feel free to PM me. But for purposes like the discussion going on here, I wouldn't bother with video; I'd just do multitrack audio to capture the all the parts, then mix down and upload to Soundcloud.

[mr. beaumont]

If you have an Apple product, there's "Acapella."

[garybaldy]

found this

seems to be accurate
quite an achievement ….
well played Paul Burke !

(I’ve worked out my own chord melody
but I found it interesting how Wes
does it , with lots of dim chords)

Ive got some screenshots of the
arrangement for the head if anyone’s
interested

Oldish thread I know, but I've started doing Caravan in my trio and can't hide behind anyone anymore!
I'm looking at bars 11 and 12 which resolve to the Fm in bar 13.
Rather than the chromatic diminished chords that follow the melody, which on the video goes from an Ebdim to the Fm in bar 13 (and not a very strong resolution) I would prefer a C7b9b5 with the Gb melody note (or if you like, a simple 4 string Gb7 ie. xx2322) going to Fm. (your trusty V - I)
You can back cycle the whole 2 bars ie C7 F7b9b5 Bb7 Eb7b9b5 Ab7 Db7b9b5 Gb7 to Fm. (or simplified, C7 B7 Bb7 A7 Ab7 G7 Gb7 to Fm). To me, the chromatic diminished chords just sound wrong. Is the transcription wrong or did Wes play it wrong!!!

[AllanAllen]

I think it sounds fine.

[rpjazzguitar]

They all sound okay to me except the Ebo at the end of the descending sequence. I also like that as Gb7. Bassist could play Gb or C.

[pamosmusic]

Oldish thread I know, but I've started doing Caravan in my trio and can't hide behind anyone anymore!
I'm looking at bars 11 and 12 which resolve to the Fm in bar 13.
Rather than the chromatic diminished chords that follow the melody, which on the video goes from an Ebdim to the Fm in bar 13 (and not a very strong resolution) I would prefer a C7b9b5 with the Gb melody note (or if you like, a simple 4 string Gb7 ie. xx2322) going to Fm. (your trusty V - I)
You can back cycle the whole 2 bars ie C7 F7b9b5 Bb7 Eb7b9b5 Ab7 Db7b9b5 Gb7 to Fm. (or simplified, C7 B7 Bb7 A7 Ab7 G7 Gb7 to Fm). To me, the chromatic diminished chords just sound wrong. Is the transcription wrong or did Wes play it wrong!!!

Trio.

Downside: no one there to cover you up
Upside: no one there to make your thing sound wrong.

Do you.