White musicians lagging behind the beat

[Robertkoa]

Interesting .I didn't know that about Brazilian but instinctively noticed Chico Pinheiro's comping reminded me of funk.

That guy has an amazing sense of time especially comping...really crisp but creative .

I learned how to program (less repetitive )
Pro Pop and R&B drum and percussion parts...(including ghost snares and syncopated etc) -

But I would not have the faintest idea how to program what the Jazz Drummers often do ,( nor would I try - but live percussionists can be really cool on Midi tracks -and you don't have to overquantize and make them so repetitive- that can be really annoying ) Jazz Drummers seem to switch in and out of regular Kick and Snare patterns and the Kick drums are often mixed at low volume.Jazz drummers don't always have a big Kick Drum on the "1".
Even every two measures for longer patterns ...I need the " 1".
So when I program my own stuff there will be different kick patterns and irregular syncopated snares but there are always solid on the 1 patterns every two or 3 measures or so at most.


I sat in years ago with a Jazz Group and locked my Rhythm Guitar to the Bassist ...
even though it was my tune lol.
But I couldn't play like I can now...


I imagine you need super good time to be a Jazz Bassist ...because bassists I assume have to follow the Drummer via hi hats/cymbals sometimes and kick and snare other times-EDIT or be the timekeeper when drummer gets really adventurous- in light of your comment below.

Although a good drummer even if he drops out the Kick and snare ..there should be some timekeeping going on ..¿

I can follow Jack DeJohnette even though he is a wild man...lol.

[christianm77]

Yeah jazz drumming has its roots in New Orleans parade drumming, which is not a simple repetitive groove but rather open and evolving.

[KirkP]

Yeah jazz drumming has its roots in New Orleans parade drumming, which is not a simple repetitive groove but rather open and evolving.

Turn the clock back a little more and the roots are in Congo Square.

[Robertkoa]

Yeah jazz drumming has its roots in New Orleans parade drumming, which is not a simple repetitive groove but rather open and evolving.

I like open and evolving ...but there ideally would be a strong Kick drum changing patterns but on a lot of Jazz...light on Kick drum...

Brazilian is from Folk Music -not particularly hard to play...but they seem to have handed down some Rhythmic Styles over a long period ...and there are a lot of variations.

Venezuela on the Quatro especially has a lot of interesting Rhythms ..

In order to adapt a new or different 'time feel' you have to live inside of that Music ..
at least the Beats (not just a Metronome).

Some 'feels' you may be able to jump right into ..others take longer...it's not a Black or White or White Latino thing...it's ultimately if you can follow and 'fit in' to certain Styles and adjust your Time Feel specifically to 'speak 'and add to that Style.

There is a point at which you stop 'following' a new Rhythmic Style .. and start to be able to live inside those Rhythms comfortably and 'Pop ' them.

Sometimes intentionally lagging can make a Beat 'pop' and breathe more .

[Robertkoa]

My impression is that there's more than one feel that gets used. I know exactly what your teacher meant. I can feel it when I play with players that have that feel. I find it hard to play with them at times - I constantly feel like I'm dragging, possibly for a good reason.

But, I have played with other Brazilian players who don't tend to play as fast and don't tend to have that aggressive feel. And, the ginga (Brasilian swing) is completely there. You want to dance.

If it makes you want to dance and especially the Audience - a good sign.
Most Jazz Musicians don't use the D word to assess their Groove.

The 'Test ' in this case is on a Recording does the 'behind the beat' Player still sound 'in time' and 'in sync' with the percussionists just like the 'faster' Player..

[ 'Faster' means more forward in the measure in this case NOT 2 different tempos , obviously -]

So you have the more laid back Guitarist literally playing ALL or most of his parts a few milliseconds later ..
And the more aggressive time feel Guitarist bouncing off the Beat more literally a few milliseconds more forward in the measure.

IF they both Sync to the Percussion parts and merely lock up slightly differently that's stylistic difference....if one is clearly out of Sync..obviously a different thing.

Generally the more time references that are on a track ...the tighter you will need to be...

You can get different ' feels ' by ' syncing'
To the kick drum ,hi hats, the bass player etc. but the better you Sync the more favorable reaction you will get.
My experience is more in Recording ...

Rehearsing complex Rhythms especially harmonic rhythms to really fine tune them
generally a Metronome is only step one-you need to use the Track or Rhythm section itself [recording or sophisticated simulation] to get something stage ready or studio ready.

[Robertkoa]

Turn the clock back a little more and the roots are in Congo Square.

Did you guys play over this beat ?

Anyway- there's a tempo change at some point where they drop out but before that ..you can Solo right along with using Jazz swing...but not behind the beat.

[rintincop]

In Miles "So What" the bass leads, not the drummer. It's called the "front pocket." . Miles solos around 100 milliseconds behind the pulse, like singers do, and that's why he sounds so relaxed. Miles synchronizes his "+" with the drummers "+" but not his down beats . This has been scientifically analyzed and documented. You can hear it with your own ears if you know what to listen for. Of course with Transcribe! software it's easier than ever to hear. Carter played ahead of Tony Williams too.

[Robertkoa]

There is nothing time wise that is difficult or unusual on that Track , except Trane's





Drummer is keeping time on the hats & cymbals ...most snares on 2 and 4 ..

Bass Player is pretty much right on with syncing to the hats/cymbals and the snares -this is an unusually simple beat ...

I understand *front pocket but if you listen bassist lines up dead on to most of the Primary Snares and to cymbals/hats.
Drummer's triplets are laid back slightly.





If you know how long 100 milliseconds is -- Miles is NOT 100 milliseconds late -he's playing it like a Ballad kind of.

You will notice that Cannonball Adderly never gets fully in Sync with the track and is slightly off time often compared to the drums , keys,bass , compared to Trane ..also seems like Adderly is mixed too high...not his best take I'm sure.

The Keyboard Player's timing is probably the most perfect of everyone and the Drummer.





Those of you who are time sensitive can probably hear where Brecker got his Tuplets feel ...when Trane gets aggressive here ..but he doesn't push the beat much ..he reminds me of Brecker....and this is a 'mood piece' ..pushing the beat hard would sound out of place .The drummer's triplets and accents are laid back in character.
Also you hear the Bassist falling right into rhythmic character when he settles in on the walking parts.

Bassist plays the Head slightly differently time wise each time.
This may have been what the Players thought was an early run through but the 'red light' was on ...sounds like they did not have much rehearsal time ...

So in Guitar vocabulary ...Miles time here would be kinda like early Metheny in slur mode ..
maybe 10 milliseconds late at most.

Not 100 ...





To push the beat like Benson sometimes does would not fit the mood of the piece .
Benson would back off slightly to fit this rhythm section as would Brecker.



Miles is not 100 milliseconds behind the beat....never listen to Scientists ..they probably meant to write 10 milliseconds or you did.

I don't have a stopwatch -that's not how I know...lol.

[rintincop]

100 milliseconds is accurate.

When bass and drums line up together, then it sounds “white “ or European. Africans and African American jazz musicians, such as the Miles Davis groups, had a feel thing for front pocket, middle, and back pocket. Much of that has been lost now. European (white) culture Did not have the same rhythmic culture. Musicologist first noticed This when the slaves were being brought to the Americas from Africa. They noticed the slaves would sing behind the beat of the oars and were amazed by it. It was quite different from how their Europeans approached time.

[Robertkoa]

If you are supposed to come in on the 1 and you are 100 milliseconds late ...every time ...you are fired.

If you are supposed to come in on the 'and' of 2 and you are always 100 milliseconds late ...you are fired.

If you play a Reggae Rhythm 100 milliseconds late it will be out of sync with the track or band as will just about every other Rhythm and you are fired.

An orchestral soloist can play late to an extent but 100 milliseconds they would never land on a down beat ...or rarely if it was a very long solo just by chance.

If you know how to swing and you are 100 milliseconds late...it won't swing.

IF you get a digital delay and set it to 100 milliseconds and listen to the delayed signal only while you solo to a track it will be totally out of sync unless you sync the delayed signal to the tempo /accent but that is a different thing and to get a delay that precise or a looped sample is a bit of work but demonstrates my point ....

You can play intentionally late and make it sound good on some tunes and tracks.

But if you set the digital delay 100 milliseconds late and you play on beat - the delayed signal will not sound like Miles Davis...this should be obvious to you.

George Benson is the most Urban ('blackest') sounding Guitarist in the History of Jazz and he plays tighter to the Beat than any other Jazz Guitarist.


You seem to have a fragmented arm's length (but never been there never done it ) view and are Conflating,Confusing Quantized Music [one thing ] with Classical Time Feel [ another thing ] with African American Time feel [ another thing ]...which by the way only a very small % of Jazz has much African American feel .

Knowing about American Black Music is not the same as being able to play it /write it /produce it.

[rintincop]

None of that is relevant to the swing of Miles Davis rhythms sections... maybe you prove Miles point... some white boys don't comprehend his band's swing

Jazz musicians have a joke that goes "How late does the band play?" to which the answer is: "About half a beat behind the drummer." That joke turns out to have more than a grain of truth in it. Did Miles Davis play the same swing ratio as his drummers? No, the fact is that his drummers regularly played larger swing ratios than Miles would . The difference helps to explain why a soloist like Miles Davis can seem to be so laid back on a particularly fast number. When playing a note that nominally coincides with the basic quarter-note beat, Davis hangs back slightly. The delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo. This tendency to hang behind the beat goes back to the musical ancestors of jazz. In the introduction to the 1867 book Slave Songs of the United States Charles Ware, one of the editors, observed that when they were rowing a boat, the oars laid down the basic beat for the slaves' singing. "One noticeable thing about their boat songs was that they seemed often to be sung just a trifle behind time," he said.
If you generate a solo line with a computer and delay every note relative to the cymbal it sounds awful. The funny thing is that there is a distinctive pattern that most musicians are not aware of. They synchronize on the short eighth note with their drummer. This also sheds light on why the famous even eighths played behind the beat can sound so swinging, see Brad Mehldau for a great example of this. That off-the-beat synchronization of the soloist and the rhythm section is crucial in keeping the band from falling apart. Effectively the musicians synchronize their internal clocks every few beats throughout the piece. When the off-the-beat notes are synchronized, you often don't realize the soloist is lagging.

[Hep To The Jive]

None of that is relevant to the swing of Miles Davis rhythms sections... You prove Miles point... white boys don't comprehend his band's swing.

Maybe he's not white, how do you know? He says ''guys like George Benson and me play on top of the beat" etc, so who knows!

[rintincop]

The master of playing behind the beat in jazz:

[rintincop]

Maybe he's not white, how do you know? He says ''guys like George Benson and me play on top of the beat" etc, so who knows!

Point taken, I was out of line.

Great players like Oscar Peterson are also very on top of the beat. Parker and Bud Powell used to mock Oscar for that and his overuse of the blues scale. The pocket (where they in relation to the beat) of an Oscar Peterson compared to a Miles Davis, Dexter Gordon, or Erroll Garner are pretty wide apart.

Anyways, Miles was talking about lagging rhythm sections, IE dragging bass players in particular and drummers.

Enough.

[christianm77]

None of that is relevant to the swing of Miles Davis rhythms sections... maybe you prove Miles point... some white boys don't comprehend his band's swing

Jazz musicians have a joke that goes "How late does the band play?" to which the answer is: "About half a beat behind the drummer." That joke turns out to have more than a grain of truth in it. Did Miles Davis play the same swing ratio as his drummers? No, the fact is that his drummers regularly played larger swing ratios than Miles would . The difference helps to explain why a soloist like Miles Davis can seem to be so laid back on a particularly fast number. When playing a note that nominally coincides with the basic quarter-note beat, Davis hangs back slightly. The delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo. This tendency to hang behind the beat goes back to the musical ancestors of jazz. In the introduction to the 1867 book Slave Songs of the United States Charles Ware, one of the editors, observed that when they were rowing a boat, the oars laid down the basic beat for the slaves' singing. "One noticeable thing about their boat songs was that they seemed often to be sung just a trifle behind time," he said.
If you generate a solo line with a computer and delay every note relative to the cymbal it sounds awful. The funny thing is that there is a distinctive pattern that most musicians are not aware of. They synchronize on the short eighth note with their drummer. This also sheds light on why the famous even eighths played behind the beat can sound so swinging, see Brad Mehldau for a great example of this. That off-the-beat synchronization of the soloist and the rhythm section is crucial in keeping the band from falling apart. Effectively the musicians synchronize their internal clocks every few beats throughout the piece. When the off-the-beat notes are synchronized, you often don't realize the soloist is lagging.

It’s funny how people who do this naturally already have real trouble coming to terms with this as a concept. It’s now something I can absolutely *hear* - I don’t need to look at waveforms etc any more.

Perhaps it doesn’t matter - I played this way before I learned what I was doing - but as a concept being able to tell students to feel the upbeats, straighten out their eights and not expect to synchronise with the 2 and 4 click when playing swing feel can help them develop a more mature soloing swing feel.

I feel it helped me get a bit more precise in what I am doing.

Swing feel is a complex subject and this is not the only aspect to it, but it’s quite a big deal imo.

[christianm77]

did you clock that yourself? 100ms is almost a sixteenth note at medium tempo.

and while i'm the biggest errol garner fan he's not only playing behind the beat but also consistently slowing down significantly.

The exact amount will be for completely straight eights locking into a 3rd triplet upbeat will be 1/6 of a beat or 16th triplet behind the beat

(In practice for most players it’s less, because they would have more of an inequality in their eights)

[christianm77]

If the bass and or drums are pushing that amount would be increased if you were taking it from their pulse

[christianm77]

There’s a couple more things that spring to mind:

The faster the music gets the less this stuff matters at 220+ to my ears the swing thing becomes more of a subtle nuance. You can play pretty straight up on the beat ala the Charlie Christian recording above and it works great.

OTOH many more contemporary players avoid medium tempo 8ths favouring double time or even triplets. I don’t think players are always taught how to make swing 8ths sound good at medium tempo.

Finally medium tempos are not as common in professional jazz as they used to be - this is because jazz is now a listening music not a dance music.

[Robertkoa]

Although they are related. I mean people who play great swing don't necessarily have a handle on Brazilian feels or vice versa.

I write by feel ..but most of the Rhythm Parts on Guitar which I do ...on R&B Fusion ( which is actually closer to Jazz than much of the Fusion of the 70s) are the pick is doing one thing while the middle voices might be plucked ..but it's groove locked....or strummed and plucked etc. More like a piano or one hand piano ...lol.

But to play or notate my Rhythms - you would count in 16ths .

Some will be tricky....lol.

Sometimes when you take fancy Rhythm Guitar parts into production- you realize that you don't need as many accents ,syncopations etc. because of the hats and percussion .

That's why I have a large vocab of big 5 and 6 note piano voicings on Guitar...

The 'lag ' issues ( or not ) become obvious when recording on playback .

I notice when some 'instructors' or musicians demo quarter note triplets , they seem to insert a tiny rest after the first note of each grouping which is not how I hear or play them ....

I like the African and World Beats - but I know I don't need ANY awareness of them to swing ..

I also do NOT hear much African or African American feel in either Parker or Dizzy Gillespie's improv.

It was very early in American Music I suppose but by 60's to today Rhythms ....Bebop to me sounds more Anglo in the Rhythms...

Listening to other Horn Players like David Sanborn or Michael Brecker - Parker has a different feel to my ears....as does Benson ...or even me..

[rpjazzguitar]

I write by feel ..but most of the Rhythm Parts on Guitar which I do ...on R&B Fusion ( which is actually closer to Jazz than much of the Fusion of the 70s) are the pick is doing one thing while the middle voices might be plucked ..but it's groove locked....or strummed and plucked etc. More like a piano or one hand piano ...lol.

But to play or notate my Rhythms - you would count in 16ths .

Some will be tricky....lol.

Sometimes when you take fancy Rhythm Guitar parts into production- you realize that you don't need as many accents ,syncopations etc. because of the hats and percussion .

That's why I have a large vocab of big 5 and 6 note piano voicings on Guitar...

What I have noticed is that some terrific Brazilian rhythm players, on piano or guitar, play a lot of notes -- very busy comping. Other players, equally propulsive, play much more sparsely. I have found it difficult to make the busy version work -- the concept isn't necessarily difficult, but executing it requires great feel and great precision -- how and when you hit which chord and when you release it. It often seems like something you have to get when you're young, to hear it, like speaking a language without an accent.

[christianm77]

What I have noticed is that some terrific Brazilian rhythm players, on piano or guitar, play a lot of notes -- very busy comping. Other players, equally propulsive, play much more sparsely. I have found it difficult to make the busy version work -- the concept isn't necessarily difficult, but executing it requires great feel and great precision -- how and when you hit which chord and when you release it. It often seems like something you have to get when you're young, to hear it, like speaking a language without an accent.

Do you play any brazilian percussion?

[christianm77]

I write by feel ..but most of the Rhythm Parts on Guitar which I do ...on R&B Fusion ( which is actually closer to Jazz than much of the Fusion of the 70s) are the pick is doing one thing while the middle voices might be plucked ..but it's groove locked....or strummed and plucked etc. More like a piano or one hand piano ...lol.

But to play or notate my Rhythms - you would count in 16ths .

Some will be tricky....lol.

Sometimes when you take fancy Rhythm Guitar parts into production- you realize that you don't need as many accents ,syncopations etc. because of the hats and percussion .

That's why I have a large vocab of big 5 and 6 note piano voicings on Guitar...

I kind of feel we are talking at cross purposes here - a lot of the thread has focussed on swing feel, while I get the feeling most of your stuff is straight 8s/16ths.

But having said that, what type of music was Miles playing in the 80s? It wasn't flipping Kind of Blue...

[Robertkoa]

I kind of feel we are talking at cross purposes here - a lot of the thread has focussed on swing feel, while I get the feeling most of your stuff is straight flipping Kind of Blue...

My swing feel is right in between Norman Brown and Benson..

You might not hear the difference ...


You are at cross purposes with it because how could I have super tight time ?




You are nitpicking ...I said you would need to count some of my R&B Rhythm Guitar

parts in 16ths because they are like a piano not likeJazz Guitarists doing horn stabs .

For example ...I could probably take something very Anglo/ Country like Chet Atkins
style Travis Picking and alter the Rhythm and time to fit hard swing ...hard swing is what Benson/Norman Brown a little less...
than GB ...the guy Dan Smith is a little less than Benson...he's extremely good just floats a bit more on the fast tempos.

As I explained to you before hard swing fits contempo R&B Latin, Reggaeton ,Blues etc...if you play behind the beat like some of the more Anglo Playing Jazzers it will not Sync properly.
It will become somewhat Rubato ...floating as the late swinger falls behind the Beat.

The effect that Miles was talking about is more severe if part of a Rhythm Track- the Guitarist will either just sound sloppy
or if it's a staccato rhythm it will be out of SYNC.

When you hear yourself played back on Studio Monitors there is none of this verbal/text stuff.

[christianm77]

ok

[Robertkoa]

Now I don't play GBs lines. .my own and obviously not as good as one of the greatest Guitarists of all time but I do have mucho chops and time ..and hard swing.Some of the stuff I will do and in the future there will be some exhibitions and cutting contests ( with known Players in clips not aspiring Players ) and a click to the CD ...which is geared to the larger black audience but has a lot of Jazz influence cause of my voicings...Depending on how good it is ...[that is a variable lol but a lot of difference between good and great ] -I think a LOT of smooth Jazz musicians will wonder why they have been playing down to their Audience ...there's a huge gap between what they do and what they could be doing ...I might only be the best at it for 4 weeks lol. Probably longer because I have some writing ability and rhythmic chops ( I think memorable Vocal tunes are easier ) And there is no Archetype...on Guitar exactly for it , there is for the lines...not so much the rhythm guitar.And the Rhythms of Jazz as you said are more for listening now...I just heard Lage Lund do something - brilliant- kind of like 20th Century Classical Music -Just not for a large Urban Audience...the Rhythm is different underneath - but very brilliant playing and writing.

But a bit more cerebral...On my material...it's very opposite of this...Not harmonically ...but rhythmically..When I have finished product - I can do some stunts...like show how far Alt Picking can go...etc etc.


From experience - in order to really use things like syncing to upbeats -

Conceptually - that may help some people - but with all the digital media around now - electronic drums Ireal etc.
A serious Guitarist should be able to sync 8ths 16ths / triplets in quarters 8ths 16ths / tuplets of other types etc.

Point being - unless a Player can already groove - 'syncing to upbeats ' won't help UNLESS he is doing Syncopated Chords , Rhythms or lines - but that is advanced again ...

I agree - you can come up with very good Rhythm Parts for R&B/ Funk though - syncing to Upbeats - crazy stuff that sounds good - just an advanced Concept - I appreciate it though.






Some of my Rhythm Parts seem to sync to upbeats because they use syncopation ...


But it's from R&B ...even though harmonically it's closer to Jazz....


I know these Guitarists can or have probably played other Styles....


@RP Jazz Below - if you Play all those percussion instruments - you must have excellent to great 'Time ' when you Play Guitar...people move ( to the Beat )when they hear your Guitar I assume .

I think Playing like a percussionist ( even a basic one ) on Guitar = great fertile ground .

Although might be too much on Standards - don't know ....