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Yes. Check this placement for yourself by slowing, say, Charlie Parker down to half speed and singing the swung ands along with the track. Don't take my word for it, I'm an internet doofus.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
No it's not. Swing ratio as in the ratio of the long note to the short note is independent. How can this be? Placement of the downbeat.If that's it, the placement dictates what the research (at least, what I read on line) the "swing ratio". That's a way of mathematically describing the placement of the upbeat.
As mentioned before swing ratio and placement are independent. At fast tempos it becomes naturally difficult to articulate swing, so the swing ratio becomes straighter naturally.... (Depending on the player) But you still catch the upbeat and that's what swings.And, the research shows that it isn't in a specific place. Rather, it varies by the tempo, the player and the point in the tune. And it isn't just a choice between an eighth and a triplet. They also measured great players with oddball numbers for swing ratio.
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08-31-2018 02:50 PM
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Basically, the straighter you play your swing, the later you play your down beat.
Jimmy Cobb is the opposite - pushed beat, heavy swing ratio (when he plays a skip note at all), but everyone still locks into the same upbeat.
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I guess I am not up to speed on this yet. Originally Posted by christianm77
Let me define some terms.
Metronome on eighth notes in 4/4. These are "straight 8ths". Right on the clicks.
I always thought that "swung eighths" meant the odd numbered eighths are on the metronome click, while the even numbered eighths are late.
How late? Often written on sheet music as the third note of an eighth note triplet (first note of this imaginary triplet is one the click, and ties to the second note).
But, the "swing ratio" research suggests that this varies. It's not always the third note of an imagined triplet, but, rather, varies with tempo, player and tune.
But, you seem to be saying this this is too simple -- that the odd numbered eighths are no longer right on the click in a swung situation.
Do I understand you correctly so far?
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"Catch the upbeat"? Originally Posted by christianm77
I'm not clear on this. The "upbeat" refers to the even numbered hits -- the placement of which varies by tempo among other things.
So, what is "catching the upbeat"? Where is it?
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The swung ands
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Miles was Miles, a mixture of love and hate, he loved the three Evans, Gil, Bill and Bill.
Hum... I think he usually said that some people believed it was binary when the feeling had to be ternary.
He said that thing about Tutu.
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That’s correct Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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In the McPherson interview, I like the distinction he draws attention to between eros and agape in the blues. In any show I had any input on, I tried to include examples of both. Surreptitiously, of course. The ladies and a random handful of scholars will appreciate the nicety, while the rest can just groove. Let, as they say, sleeping dogs lie.
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Miles’ bass players played ahead of the beat, Ron Carter is a master of that drive . I think white bass players I have encountered are not so much in the habit. They tend to play and think on the beat which is less of an exciting drive. That is what I take from Miles’ comment.
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Brandi Disterheft plays with a really nice push, but she's a student of Ron's. It was fun playing time (was a dance gig) with her - couldn't be late! Originally Posted by rintincop
There's not many pushy bass players out there in London, a couple here and there.
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I think people (and I say this well aware that my tempo stability is not always shall we say the best) have a difficulty perceiving beat placement and tempo as independent. There can be a push on the beat and it can feel like the music is speeding up - but it isn't.
As a swing rhythm guitarist, my placement will depend on the band, but a lot of the time I am expected to push - pushing the 2 and 4 is typical for gypsy jazz (as Angelo Debarre puts it if the rhythm guitar doesn't push, you are ****ed) but then in some bands I might sit in the pocket more. It really depends what the drums and bass are doing.
None of this is an excuse for sloppiness, these sorts of placements should be consistent and under control - but it's not something you will find on a metronome.. Click time can only go so far.
There's a world of possibilities that you can only explore experientially playing with great musicians.
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Brandi is a typical NYC bassist. I mean, it's a standard pretty much. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I would have thought so. But I didn't want to make assumptions on only a few experiences. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I would say pretty much all the NYC bass players I have played with have had that feel compared to the Brits, (but I particularly noticed it with Brandi for some reason.)
Why do you think that is?
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I have to make a disclaimer: I'm talking about bassists who are at least partially connected to trad/Gypsy/swing scene. The ones who only play bebop/straightahead/contemporary I can't say, even though brief encounter with a couple left a bad taste. Originally Posted by christianm77
But plenty who can play anything and everything and do it really good with a right push.
Why... Maybe the influence of Black musicians heritage is very strong here, or maybe the city has that vibe of rushing through and pushing?
I'm off to my gig with a bass player who plays better solos than myself, and he's only in his 20's!
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That's fair comparison cos that's when I've played with them. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
OK - that's interesting. (It makes me laugh that you lump bebop in with contemporary. Do you have any idea how angry that would make some people? :-))The ones who only play bebop/straightahead/contemporary I can't say, even though brief encounter with a couple left a bad taste.
London is a bit more relaxed (ha!) than NYC. I think the main thing here is that there is not a direct connection with the history. Brandi studies with Ron Carter (and I don't believe that to be a particular claim to fame). You can't do that in London, except catch people on tour. For time feel I think you need regular contact.But plenty who can play anything and everything and do it really good with a right push.
Why... Maybe the influence of Black musicians heritage is very strong here, or maybe the city has that vibe of rushing through and pushing?
I'm off to my gig with a bass player who plays better solos than myself, and he's only in his 20's!
In London, you can study with someone technically amazing, and there are some bass players with that time feel. But nothing like the level of immersion in NYC.
There are some fantastically talented players here, more every year. But I think the music is different in flavour.... And obviously it's such a magnet for talent (London is too, but not so much for 'pure' jazz, I think, pop maybe.)
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I find myself unable to analyze it. When I listen to a group, I don't hear the push or lag clearly.
But, when I'm playing, I can feel it quite clearly.
Here is something I've noticed. I have played with different Brazilian players. All of the players I refer to in this post are musicians that are established pros.
Some of them have a time feel which they describe as right on the beat and which I feel as a kind of edgy push. At brisk tempo, I can tell I'm behind, but I can't quite feel how to catch up. They may advise me to "lean forward" into the beat, but words don't help much. Played correctly, it's great.
But, I've played with some other Brazilian musicians who don't have that time feel. With them, my sense of time works as is, although I have noticed that I can do it when playing with them, but it's not easy to lead other groups to that feel. These players are not as far ahead of the beat. It doesn't feel like constantly leaning forward, but it also feels great. This group may reflect an older style, but I'm not sure about that.
I have heard that, to the Brazilian musician, Americans seem to play too far behind the beat. Some have suggested it's the swing influence. That is, it's too easy to play that second eighth note late.
For the record, I don't think race has anything to do with it.
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Well a teacher (great Brazilian percussionist and educator) once told me if Samba doesn’t feel like it’s speeding up, it’s probably dragging.
That push in the last 16th placement is key to this I think. It’s like the opposite of jazz swing lol (but it ends up being almost a 3rd triplet placement apparently, not that sambistas would think about it like that.)
Anyway I get told off for swinging my upbeats on the cavaco.... I have to work hard to even get them straight, let alone Brazilian!
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I mean, bebop in looser meaning, I shouldve just said straightahead and contemporary. But you know what I mean... Players who think the only jazz worth knowing about started from Bird and co. Originally Posted by christianm77
Today after the gig we went to our friend's gig, another excellent bass player who is good at every style. His was a contemporary jazz gig, and he asked me if I wanna sit in. Sure! They had so much push that I almost lost the beat on a tune I called! It took me a bit to adjust to the drummer, who was superb btw.
So NYC experience, I'd say the whole 'lagging behind the beat' is almost non existent here in serious jazz players.
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My impression is that there's more than one feel that gets used. I know exactly what your teacher meant. I can feel it when I play with players that have that feel. I find it hard to play with them at times - I constantly feel like I'm dragging, possibly for a good reason. Originally Posted by christianm77
But, I have played with other Brazilian players who don't tend to play as fast and don't tend to have that aggressive feel. And, the ginga (Brasilian swing) is completely there. You want to dance.
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That's why I said samba. Rio samba specifically we were attempting (very badly) to play in a batteria when he said that. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Obviously Rio samba is pretty fast and physically demanding to play which is why a lot of amateur groups do Samba Reggae which is nice'n'slow :-)
But yeah, Bossa doesn't feel that way for instance.
Brazil is obviously a massive a country with a very rich cultural heritage. Jazz musicians can get by with just knowing Bossa and Samba obviously, but there's loads of other nice grooves. In my life I've probably as many hours in a formal environment learning about Brazilian music as jazz (not that that is saying very much), and I feel like I still know just the very basics and can't play it very well even for a gringo lol. I think you have to go for immersion. That is something that IS in fact a bit possible in London, lots of Brazilians around. More great Brazilian musicians than hard swinging NYC style jazz players I'd say.
Also Cubans, Nigerians, Carribeans and Ghanians.... Ethiopian jazz is pretty well represented here too.... Wherever you can think of that has a great groove tradition is well represented here, and you can go for workshops. It's a bit OT but I think the relative success of UK jazz groups like Ezra collective in the states is down to their flavour which is specifically afrobeat influenced... To my ears, it's kind of standard (literally even second world/groove band is an afrobeat band here), but in the states it's probably more unusual.
Man I'm getting inspired... I should sign up for some classes on Tres Cubano or something.
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I thought I'd post this because to me it's a good example of someone playing a swing feel that's very much up on the beat - pretty straight. Charlie does swing some of his upbeats, but that straight against swing thing sounds very hip at this tempo.
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Re: Brazilian Music ,Brazilian Musicians White ,Black ,Mixed,or Asian ...
There you go..just listening to the comping
in Brazilian Music , including the Pop etc.
and having very little knowledge or experience with it ..there is far less margin for error regarding playing behind the beat etc. because of the Rhythm Guitar styles alone and the percussion ..etc.
And still there is some room to play solos
more aggressively or more relaxed but the Rhythms are more defined.
Another thing is if you have a lot of tuplets in your playing ...you can play them like
Benson , you can play them like Brecker , you can play them SLIGHTLY more relaxed - further back in time like Jon Kriesberg ..
But any later than Kriesberg ...they won't line up and will be late.
I do have direct experience with this.
Simply -if you record yourself over more defined beats with percussion and more strict harmonic rhythms you will have to adjust slightly-especially on comping.
For example you may have a range of behind the beat comping on certain types of Jazz..but on a Reggae Track or a Bossa Track ..you will have less wiggle room.
You have almost no wiggle room on' Spain' when playing the' Head ' for example ....
Likewise if you Solo on the Reggae version of Giant Steps ...haha
OK- if you Solo over Reggae the Rhythm Guitar parts will probably force you to adjust a little ...
To my ears the Bassist starts out intentionally behind the beat on the Intro on Miles version.
Then here :
aside from faster tempo on the Intro the Drummer plays a more defined Kick and Snare Pattern then lays out but comes back with it during the Sax Solo then out again but the whole thing is tighter than Miles version.
And then - here is an even tighter tune with a similar Harmonic Rhythm which forces you into tighter Rhythms when you solo-
less margin for error , less freedom because of the kick and snare and hi hat patterns.
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Swing feel =/= straight 16ths funk =/= Brazilian swing
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Although they are related. I mean people who play great swing don't necessarily have a handle on Brazilian feels or vice versa.
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Also the focus on this thread has been a bit on soloing, but really Miles could have been talking about the rhythm section. As mentioned above he liked bass players who push.
Paul Chambers is playing relaxed downbeats on the intro because he has effectively swapped roles to being a horn player. That's where a horn player would sit. It's where Miles sits in his solo. As soon as he swaps roles to being a bass player he pushes, as does Cobb.
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