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I understand exactly what Miles is referring to.
Pat Metheny made a similar comment regarding ' swing' [on a Video ] regarding Guitarists not often sounding like they are 'in it '
rhythmically but floating along..Metheny also mentions on the Video - ' most white guys can't do it '
He didn't mean 'they can't do it BECAUSE they are white' just a mathematical observation- you will see IF you watch a bunch of Dancers - a MUCH higher % of African American dancers will land their feet precisely on beat.
You can hear yourself especially doing complex Rhythms on recordings - on playback ,there is nowhere to hide...
Swing is one thing, lagging way behind the beat or sounding like a runner with legs of two different lengths is another.
I call myself an R&B Fusion Guitarist so despite being white lol
although not quite as tight as George Benson ...I am tighter if I so choose than most Jazz Guitarists..
Although there is a way to be a little more relaxed and still not lag like Wes was on single lines...but Wes' chording was very tight.
I think a good way to illuminate what I am trying to say is :[ just occurred to me ]-
Listen to most Brazilian Guitarists- having ZERO to do with race -
They MUST be very tight on Rhythm Guitar to even PLAY the Music- no way around it. Nowhere to hide.
On single lines in Jazz, Funk,Fusion or Urban Jazz etc there is a lot of room for 'artisic interpretation ' on Notes and Time Feel...and the Brazilian Guitarists do wander in time on single lines a bit...but rarely on Rhythm Parts.
But on Brazilian Pop or Brazilian Jazz the Rhythms really have to be very tight or it sticks out in the mix or ensemble.
Some' Styles' require a much tighter feel and the Players have it or they get screened out ..
The finer subdivisions of the Percussionists on certain styles really expose timing slop IMO..having nothing to do with Race.
Listen to John McLaughlin on Jazz and he's good timing wise ..but listen to him with Shakti...and he's great super tight.
But I think the Brazilian Musicians wipe out 'Racial Distinctions ' - and transcend the observations I made above about Dancers and Players..and make what I was trying to say more clear.
I think the time thing is even more obvious on precise Rhythm Guitar parts especially over numerous simultaneous parts ( drummer and percussion etc.).
However ,Metheny as talented as he is still does not sound 'Urban'...
Listen to anything by Metheny ...then listen to Benson...
It's not a Racial thing..it's how you 'hear' and process 'time' and create Rhythmic Tension .Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-14-2018 at 09:29 AM.
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07-17-2018 11:01 AM
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It would have been a much better quote if he had said -GUITARISTS have a tendency to lag behind the beat.
Jazz Guitarists lag behind the beat more than R&B Guitarists. If you are white and R&B oriented you will probably lag less.
George Benson is the tightest to the Beat of all the Jazz Guitarists.
As I have mentioned before you could take
Adam Rodgers ....go to track 18 in the DAW where his Solos are and move them forward in time then accent a few notes here and there and get them to end on a 1 or subdivision/ main beat ....then sharpen the attack at the front of each note and
BAM - close to Benson .
Remember I am only talking about a few milliseconds here.
IF you are really on beat you will sound like a percussionist.. you can be tighter to the beat and still swing .
Most Guitarists can push the beat a bit on Rhythm Funk Guitar parts ...but it is difficult for them to 'hear' a different 'pocket' for their Solos.
People often have a default 'pocket ' for their Solos ....sometimes they can't hear the difference ...sometimes they can hear the difference but can not move forward in the measure [ like Benson ] because of physical and mental lag .
Behind the Beat can sound good but ideally you could choose to lay back or be aggressive.
Hancock is certainly a funky more aggressive sounding Rhythmatist but I assume Miles was not talking about his own Playing.
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No. It is definiely possible to 'swing' earlier in time tighter to the beat like Benson OR more behind the Beat like Metheny.
Originally Posted by christianm77
This is demonstrable as is what I said above looking at a Computer if you want to get Scientific ...I have never done ..that but know by listening and playing.
Also by definition swing has a range though rather narrow...which can be expressed as a mathematical range in MIDI Sequencers etc...there is a point too fast and too slow which even non musicians will hear as 'odd'.
And if we have a Which Guitarist Swings Hardest lol It will go on for 6.97 months some will say Benson some will say Wes some will say Metheny , some etc.
Swing is soooooooo subjective-moving forward or backward in a measure in a DAW with audio slices is not .
Who swings harder is always subjective.
Very very few Guitarists if any can play like a percussionist with pitch.
So swing is very subjective ...the behind the beat thing Miles said...less subjective
if you have ever played in the Studio to a quantized track -it is possible to make Guitar Parts sound comically robotic if you really lock onto the kick and snare etc. and grab the notes in chords but there's a range where live percussion and Guitar can slightly slop up in a good way and humanize a track....
It is pretty cool that there are different timings of swing that sound good but everyone especially guitars and horns in Jazz seems to have their own variations...more art than Science.
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That's an interesting post - have you actually tried that experiment with Adam Rogers? Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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No but I know it will work ...
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How?
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I would say that all People when they start to learn an instrament will eather tap thier foot or use a metronome to help them keep time. Latter they should be able to keep time with out such Things.some people have no real feel for time and have to use them. the only problem I have with being on the beat is when the Tempo changes a lot.in that case I have to practice the song more to be spot on the beat. and I don't think has any thing to do with color.Though I do notice that people with darker skin seem to be able to stay with the beat a little more then the Non Darker skin people for over all. I don't like referring people by race we are all just people
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I might actually try the Adam Rogers experiment on my own playing. TBH it's always quite interesting to look at your own playing in a DAW... Not sure how much it helps, but it's a thing lol.
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I dunno about this 'up on the beat' thing.
Listen to this half speed and tell me GB is doing anything other than locking into the swung upbeat, playing very accurate triplets and occasionally doing the straight against the swing thing that Lester Young pioneered and Grant Green did so well.
The difference to me is that not only is GB's time super accurate, but also the phrasing has a lot of life to it. The attacks are snappy, there's a lot of dynamics with the accents, quite a bit of rhythmic vocabulary beyond strings of 8th notes which contribute to the swing and vibeyness and over all feel.... To me this is not a distinction based on beat placement that you could tweak on a DAW - I think any competent jazz musician would place their upbeats in a similar place.
I just think that the more 'modern' players use less rhythmic variety and a more uniform and softer attack.
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Unless of course you mean to say Rogers et al lag further behind this upbeat position
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I heard Benson live years ago and was astonished by his chops. He has the whole package, of course, but I just want to focus on chops for a moment. Originally Posted by christianm77
He has chops to spare. So that, when he executes a line, he isn't struggling. He can nail them at the full speed they need to be played at. He doesn't have to fudge -- when a note needs to be picked to work, he can pick it. He doesn't have to substitute a slide, a hammer, a pull-off or a sweep.
So, he can play an uptempo tune with the facility that many other players can only bring to much lower tempos. Also, he played as if he was unwilling to play something that he couldn't nail accurately. That's a judgment issue that I've had to relearn several times. "Nothing will sound good if the time is bad".
For comparison, a couple of months ago I attended a show with a guitarist whose name is mentioned on this forum occasionally. I won't name him in case I'm wrong about this, although I don't think I am. He played some uptempo tunes and I don't think he executed a single one of his fast lines in time. I thought he was very sloppy. Maybe just a bad night. It may be hard to resist trying to play something that comes to mind, even if you don't have the chops. But, Benson did not have that problem -- chops to spare.
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You can't just say something like that and not tell us who lol... But fair enough. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It's not nothing to be able to lock into the feel at any tempo, play rhythmically varied lines with clarity and precision. It's a HUGE achievement that sometimes slips people by. The guitar is hard. Even if your time is A+, the articulation and clarity can be super demanding. I don't think Grant Green gets enough props for his genius in this area, because it doesn't SOUND hard. It should never sound hard. Benson has uber-chops obv. ... But he also has the Grant Green elements.
As someone who aspires to use at least some of that rhythmic vocabulary myself, I can say that it's a bit different from simply trying to play laid back swing 8th notes. As I say - triplets, nice crispy triplets.... I can get them at some tempos, but not all..
I also don't want to analyse things too much, but I think that the idea one can move note placement from Adam Rogers and get Benson is ... wrong? And I love both players dearly. What Benson plays is just different phrasing wise from AR if you wrote it down in the most basic way. You can compare on the recordings...
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I find myself buffeted about by the winds of jazz. That is, every day, or week, some new weakness in my playing comes to the forefront and I try to focus on it, at least until something else bubbles to the top of the to-do list.
But, for a while now I've been focusing on the issue of "feel". I've posted before about some frequency spectrum/time graphs which prove that the groove is not what we typically write on the page. If you play it 100% accurate with the metronome, it doesn't feel right. Good feel is something else.
The music that moves people has "it" referring to the elusive quality of great feel.
I doubt that there is only one version of "great feel". GB and Wes don't feel the same even at the same tempo.
And, I don't think that massive chops are required. I like Paul Desmond's feel, and he doesn't play a lot of notes. But, then again, he never plays anything he can't execute -- he has that in common with the chops masters. Hank Mobley is like that.
The big question is, how do you develop it?
My current thinking, this afternoon, is that making it a priority may go a long way. I'm trying to think about it constantly when I play.
I also spent some time playing along with some of Reg's videos. In my opinion, he has great time feel. I'll confess that I don't understand a lot of what he writes, but the time issue is very clear.
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God no. If you are playing a mature swing feel (i.e. locked to swing upbeat but straighter than 'textbook' triplet 1/4, 1/8) you won't synchronise to the 2 and 4 metronome on 8ths. That's just maths. Your triplets an 1/4s will lock however. But if you have the click on 2 and 4 and expect to synch? Well you will be in time, but you won't have a pocket. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Test it yourself. Sing the swing 'ands' along with George at 0.5 speed. Lines up, right? Now ask yourself, is he playing 'doo-be doo-be doo' 1/4 triplet 1/8 triplet on 8ths? (F*** no! Much straighter.) Ergo, the downbeats in the 8th lines are behind the beat. They would only line up if the upbeat is straight, which it is not*
Ergo - if you practice with a metronome with a click on 2 and 4 and expect to synch, it is actually impossible to play that sort of feel. (click on the 'and' might be a better option if synch'ing is what you want, 1+ and 3+)
But, you can swing the 2 and 4 click, and that's what many players talk about. There's a danger in being too anal about this stuff...
This is something it is easier to see for yourself with DAW's.... But who cares? I think musicians always knew this intuitively. That's what the pocket is.... The upbeat.
No, I mean Adam Rogers, to pick Roberts antithesis example, to me exemplifies a great MODERN feel. I find his timing quite mesmerising.The music that moves people has "it" referring to the elusive quality of great feel.
I doubt that there is only one version of "great feel". GB and Wes don't feel the same even at the same tempo.
GB and Wes ... hmm I can hear Grant Green's influence on George's phrasing TBH. Got poo-poo'd elsewhere. Still I'm obviously ignorant and stupid when it comes to jazz guitar.
That's the secret. Don't play anything you can't execute. When will I learn? (I always visualise Barry Harris looking over his glasses every time I go a couple of bars without triplets. It's not my fault.)And, I don't think that massive chops are required. I like Paul Desmond's feel, and he doesn't play a lot of notes. But, then again, he never plays anything he can't execute -- he has that in common with the chops masters. Hank Mobley is like that.
Yeah, I love the way Reg plays chordal comps in particular. Really precise and grooving.The big question is, how do you develop it?
My current thinking, this afternoon, is that making it a priority may go a long way. I'm trying to think about it constantly when I play.
I also spent some time playing along with some of Reg's videos. In my opinion, he has great time feel. I'll confess that I don't understand a lot of what he writes, but the time issue is very clear.
I think feeling upbeats is a MASSIVE part of it. We seem a bit hung up about the beat, but I think most can synchronise with a metronome click? (If you can't, probably work on that tho)
So, the advice I would pass on (from various sources) FWIW is - practice accenting and feeling the upbeat in your lines (don't necessarily play them accented, but it's good to feel where they are) and practice feeling the swing upbeat with records. I think this is doing a lot to improve my swing feel, but you'll prob. have to wait for my next album to see if you agree lol.... Sorry!
* for the swing 8th feel. I mean, it can be, but that's a different rhythm. George plays with that a little in his solo.
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What would it look like if proper swing feel was carefully written out?
For samba, it's somewhere between a triplet and a sixteenth eighth sixteenth -- but I can't recall ever seeing what it actually is in standard notation, using 64th notes, or whatever is necessary.
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Complicated. Possible, but it would be easier to demonstrate with a waveform, or piano roll. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I just don't think standard notation is very well set up for this kind of stuff.For samba, it's somewhere between a triplet and a sixteenth eighth sixteenth -- but I can't recall ever seeing what it actually is in standard notation, using 64th notes, or whatever is necessary.
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That's an interesting point. We use musical notation that can't (or makes it very difficult) to accurately represent the music? If that's true, it suggests that some enterprising music Ph.D. student should try to tackle the project of developing a usable rhythmic notation for jazz and/or other groove based style. Originally Posted by christianm77
I spent a few minutes researching it for swing music. Turns out, it is expressed as "swing ratio". Even eighths is 1.0. Tied triplet is 2.0 I think dotted eighth and sixteenth is 3.0.
The interesting thing is that it isn't constant. Apparently, it varies with tempo, with the player and maybe essentially at random as players vary for the sake of not being repetitive.
Maybe that's why there's no notation for it. It isn't one thing.
This also suggests why it's hard to learn or teach. You can't write it. It changes all the time. You have to feel it -- and it changes from one moment to another.
Playing along with records and playing with good players -- maybe the best way to work on it?Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 08-30-2018 at 10:35 PM.
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I can hear it .Feel it ,play it .It's an obvious difference to me . I would not need to test it in a DAW that was to make the point clear . Originally Posted by christianm77
Last edited by Robertkoa; 08-31-2018 at 04:33 AM.
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The ratio changes, but the upbeats are still where it’s at. I don’t think the ratio is the important determining factor in whether something swings or not, and I think that’s where academic studies have traditionally focussed because they are coming from a very - European? - mindset. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The problem is in notation there’s no easy way to show something synching to the swung ‘and’ and coming in fractionally after the downbeat.
But there are rhythmic simplifications and conventions in the notations for classical music too. So as long as you know the conventions and can feel them, there’s no problem.
The important thing is to have rhythmic acuity to sense where the upbeat is both straight and swing and be able to execute it all on your instrument. This is challenging for faster tempos: but it is also easier to fake.
The primacy of the upbeat is one of the big factors that separates jazz time and its African influence from Western European time.
Please don’t take my word for it, or imagine this is some concept I’ve invented:
Interview with Charles McPherson | DO THE M@TH
I’m very much learning how to put this together at all tempos and for all phrases, so I’m aware I’m not the best exemplar. But at least I have a roadmap, and when I get this right, I swing.
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Whatever works .
Most people reference downbeats .
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Audio or I don't believe you :-) Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Most people don't swing like Charles McPherson Originally Posted by Robertkoa
(Actually he does still reference downbeats. I don't think it's necessary to get hung up on the super dorky side of it - the important thing is that you know where the upbeats are. And I'm going to have a close listen to Adam Rogers and see what I notice about his medium swing feel. Like most of the more contemp. style players he tends to play up a lot.)
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Assuming I understand this correctly, by "upbeat" you mean the placement of the even-numbered notes in a pattern. So, the metronome's upbeat is the second eighth. Swung eighths gives you the "upbeat" on something like the third note of a triplet. Just want to make sure I've got the nomenclature correct.
If that's it, the placement dictates what the research (at least, what I read on line) terms the "swing ratio". That's a way of mathematically describing the placement of the upbeat.
And, the research shows that it isn't in a specific place. Rather, it varies by the tempo, the player and the point in the tune. And it isn't just a choice between an eighth and a triplet. They also measured great players with oddball numbers for swing ratio.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 08-31-2018 at 04:23 PM.
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Sorry by upbeat I mean the ‘ands’ - it is a bit confusing.... could mean 2 and 4 I guess.
Charles M lays it out in the interview
EDIT: duh I didn’t read your post properly. Pls disregard
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Healthy skepticism is fine.
Unhealthy skepticism is inspiring too...lol.
I will let you know when I have something.
I do pro demos -when I record it's not a hobby.
I use a Midi Rig not a DAW in the modern era..the DAW is in the big studio with an engineer after preproduction.
But to my ears Benson is one of the few Jazz Guitarists who does not play behind the beat.Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-12-2018 at 11:34 PM.
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