White musicians lagging behind the beat

[aleksandar]

I think Joe Pass swings like a mother.

True that...And sometimes his swingin' makes me dizzy. I mean, he's really great, great voicings, I got a lot of his music in my music library, but his swingin' is like TAaaa-da, TAaaa-da, whereas I like it to be more like a floating feel, I don't know how to explain.

[TH]

Linguistic/Music associations Myth or Reality?

Enjoy:

[Durban]

you may walked straight into Miles bait,

......sure hired lots of Pale boys, Evans Sco Chick J Mc, and an Albino. etc

Miles Don' Meen it like dat Bro jus messin wid ya


Shhh/Peaceful

[Jazzstdnt]

OK I watched the whole interview. I wanted it to go on (because I wanted to see more of Miles, not Harry Reasoner). The 60 minutes genius referred to Miles as "upper middle class".

Ahem. Upper middle class, huh? Miles had a brownstone or some such in Manhattan, a beach side Malibu place, a Ferrari Testarossa. (Ok, so he could have used an interior decorator for his bachelor pad).

That's just another example of how jaded, elitist, smug, sheltered, and once again arguably racist - the interviewer was.

[Jazzstdnt]

In the end I think that this was a bit of a hit piece on Miles, for ratings of course. It focused very little on jazz music and instead was mostly personal. It focused on his material possessions and holdings, youthful misdeeds, financial well being, even his marriage/divorce. I think that journalists ask these gotcha questions of people to make them squirm, on camera.

First question was provocative as hell - "are black musicians better than white musicians?"

Where did that come from? Probably from Miles criticizing Brubeck's band to his face and other such statements, etc. But it could have been phrased better, like "do white musicians play African American music as effectively and authentically as African Americans?"

Now that would have been a more fair and less provocative question. The answer may not have been so comfortable though, at least to Harry Reasoner.

On the questions about Cicely Tyson, and old fashioned person would have said something like "that's personal and none of your business". Yet Harry Reasoner poked at him like an interrogator or pushy priest.

Even if HR wanted to dish dirt on Miles he could have done that with narration. "Investigative journalism", my ass.

[christianm77]

I think after rigorous analysis and debate the conclusion is that the interviewer was a poopy head.

I do enjoy Miles's expression of baffled disbelief at the inanity of the questions.

[mrcee]

OK I watched the whole interview. I wanted it to go on (because I wanted to see more of Miles, not Harry Reasoner). The 60 minutes genius referred to Miles as "upper middle class".

Ahem. Upper middle class, huh? Miles had a brownstone or some such in Manhattan, a beach side Malibu place, a Ferrari Testarossa. (Ok, so he could have used an interior decorator for his bachelor pad).

That's just another example of how jaded, elitist, smug, sheltered, and once again arguably racist - the interviewer was.

Talk about: ''jaded, elitist, smug, sheltered, and once again arguably racist''. An academic from a southern (US) college, maybe LSU, recently wrote a book (I can't recall the name) about classism in the South. She tells a story about a guy from a white working class southern family who gets a full ride scholarship to Yale. He is surprised to hear his classmates refer to Drs. and lawyers etc as being middle class. That seems to be setting the bar pretty high and puts a lot of us in the white trash (which may have been part of the book's title) category. On the other side of the coin, I've known children of Oakies whose parents were in the late 30s picking cotton in TX and Oklahoma for a dollar a day and blew out to Calif where they cobbled together a 1/2 way decent lifestyle (but nothing special) consider themselves ''upper middle class'' I suppose because they had indoor plumbing a car and a telephone. Goes to show you the confused state of class consciousness in America.

[grahambop]

I thought Miles handled that interview very well. In the old days I think he would have shown that interviewer some of his boxing skills.

[sgosnell]

Middle class is a broad and inexact term. I thought we were middle class, about average for the people I knew (and everybody knew everybody, pretty much, in the county), and we didn't have running water or an indoor toilet until I started high school, and no phone until after I was in the Army. Looking back, we were dirt poor but I didn't realize it until much, much later. I didn't know how the city folks lived.

[Jazzstdnt]

I thought Miles handled that interview very well. In the old days I think he would have shown that interviewer some of his boxing skills.

I like how he started watching the TV and ignored Reasoner for awhile. Hehe.

[fathand]

You can't take much of what Miles Davis said in interviews seriously. I don't believe there is any racial aspect to musicianship one way or another.

Yeah I gotta agree! I've played music with white and black ppl and if they're in the same caliber of musicianship as you're in they will be in sync. Color don't matter and let's not forget that Miles Davis was a heroin addict for most of his life and that only got worse towards the end of his life.

[lammie200]

I am not sure why I want to tread into this thread, but I thought that Miles once said that the best bands were composed of mixed ethnicity.

[TH]

I am not sure why I want to tread into this thread, but I thought that Miles once said that the best bands were composed of mixed ethnicity.

I think he said he hires his band because they're the best. He didn't care if they were black, white or purple.

David

[jzucker]

yes, he's right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.

I think it's no coincidence that Dan Wilson is one of the few young jazz guitarists (early '20s) who plays with that "black" feel. He happens to be black and was brought up in a very middle class environment but told me that his first exposure to jazz, blues and R&B was a child in african american churches. Compare his playing and time feel to Mike Moreno. Equally great player, but very different feel and approach to the beat.

[christianm77]

Thank you for introducing me to Dan's playing.

[jzucker]

dan's a great player. I used to jam with him regularly, now he's playing the village vanguard, bluenote, playing with christian mcbride and was nominated for a grammy. He's on the road a lot with joey defrancesco.

[AKA]

yes, he's right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.

I don't speak for all African Americans, but in my opinion our particular rhythm/timing is the result of tens of thousands of years of existence. It is, in fact, particular to our collective experience and passed along and reinforced by our common cultural experiences, including our churches, our house parties, our social clubs, etc..

Inside story, whether it's Miles or most any other African American, we do believe we have a particular sense of timing that distinguishes us from most white Americans. It's expressed in our music, our speech, our dance, and choice of colors, etc. We didn't invent it, it's who we are.

Personally, I believe as the world continues to shrink, and the races continue to intermingle, a common human expression will emerge that draws on the best of us all. Then we can dispense with these kinds of discussions.

Albert

[Alter]

I think no matter the race or kind of music, everything accounts for the way a person plays. Heritage, music you are exposed to, what you see in the mirror, muscle system, upbringing, etc.. You play who you are. Black and white jazz players do play differently, at least to my ears, and each bring a different sensitivity to the music. The way the rhythm flows and grooves is one of the biggest differences. Just watch white and black people walk, or kids play and it is plain to see. I like both, Red Garland is fine, so is Bill Evans. Dan Wilson, Peter Bernstein, list goes on..




-- @jjucker that was a great video i hadn't seen before of Dan Wilson. I have his first cd, and it 's impressive how much he's progressed from his early playing (which i also enjoyed a lot). Man, you have to live an ocean and a half away from all this music to really appreciate youtube

[christianm77]

Yeah what you guys are saying here to me was the whole thing I was trying to sum up elsewhere between old school swing and the more modern approach. (Which is how I saw it rather than in race terms, but the influence of other black music and the church was certainly present in my mind.)

Anyway, to me a lot of it is a difference in the quality of articulation as much as specific beat placement, but ears might be on wrong here.

There is a positivity and snap to Dan’s playing, but it is also relaxed on the beat.... His double time is pretty mega.

Moreno consciously accents the upbeat and plays straight and a little behind which is the textbook definition of a mature swing feel really... In this sense i wouldn’t hear Dan Wilson or Barry Harris for instance as doing it differently but there’s clearly a stylistic difference which goes beyond these simple elements and may be hard or impossible to analyse (which is why they call it feel.)

I do remember Dan Wilson from the 2015 Wes competition tearing up Cottontail. Looking it up he didn’t do that well in the placings (lot of really nice players in the final) but clearly he’s going from strength to strength. Just goes to show....

[christianm77]

I might be wrong here but I think players like Moreno would tend to consciously avoid that type of bluesy medium tempo heavily tripletty swing as well...

Would love to hear an example, I haven’t heard anything like that from him.

[MarkRhodes]

yes, he's right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.

I think it's no coincidence that Dan Wilson is one of the few young jazz guitarists (early '20s) who plays with that "black" feel. He happens to be black and was brought up in a very middle class environment but told me that his first exposure to jazz, blues and R&B was a child in african american churches. Compare his playing and time feel to Mike Moreno. Equally great player, but very different feel and approach to the beat.

Based on these two clips, I'm all in with Dan. That's the kind of feel I love. Mike has chops and I'm sure I could learn a lot from him, but what he's doing----and he does it damned well---just doesn't speak to me at all. (I think this might be why so little post-50s jazz really grabs me, UNLESS it has that blues 'n' gospel flavoring in it. Benson, obviously, though I lost interest in more of the fusiony / pop stuff. I never got into Metheny at all. And let me hasten to add, "It's not him, it's me!"

On a related note, I like a lot of Pat Martino's early stuff but care less for the later stuff. He's a helluva player all the time, but I'd rather listen to one of his old records than one of his newer ones. The feel of the older ones suits me better.

[Gitfiddler]

[QUOTE=jzucker;871566]yes, he's right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.

I think it's no coincidence that Dan Wilson is one of the few young jazz guitarists (early '20s) who plays with that "black" feel. He happens to be black and was brought up in a very middle class environment but told me that his first exposure to jazz, blues and R&B was a child in african american churches. Compare his playing and time feel to Mike Moreno. Equally great player, but very different feel and approach to the beat.

I REALLY dig Dan Wilson's playing!!
This young man is a rising Super Star in my view.

Jazz Guitarist Dan Wilson

[Alter]

Playing festivals all over the world with Joey de Francesco, i'd say he's already risen!

[christianm77]

I do feel like there is an increasing divide between the players who are coming out of say Church music, Benson etc and those that come out of ... err .... Rush and Joe Satriani....

In the latter case the music is always a bit proggy in outlook.

Which I can dig, but what I actually miss a little is a synthesis of the two. Some of that feel in the more ‘contemporary’ jazz music... could it even work? I dunno.

[Jonah]

Jazz student is on slippy territory with the classical time feel thing lol that’s the flame war that launched Adam Neely that is.

I would say from my own experiences performing in large scale core repertoire works with bands like the London Philharmonic and so on conductors like Bernard Haitink etc, that professional orchestras (and good amateur choral groups) do indeed perform way behind the beat of if by ‘the beat’ we mean the conductors baton.

Some conductors such as Esa Pekka Salonen have aimed to retrain orchestras to play on the beat, and when you think of his repertoire (20th century rep and contemporary) that makes sense.

Also early bands play often without a conductor so their corporate timefeel is the issue, and I think their conception of time is more like jazz or pop.

(Anyway I do think it is possible to have good time in a classical sense - metronomic subdivision, sensitive rubato etc - and still be totally at sea when it comes to a jazz conception of time. You see it all the time.... but that’s not really that relevant to the op.)

Have you heard about 'tatus' conception? To me it's very complex notion which is imho often oversimplified today and to me represented very well - paradoxally enough fir modern HIPP player - in Furtwangler's records...

He makes astounding feel of time... it's like it's moving and standing at teh same time.
but in classical time is always connected with harmony, I do not believe there is a pure rythm as it is.