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I don't think Lage Lund playing straight 8s contemporary NYC jazz is really a valid comparison to anything we've been talking about really. This music has a more abstract sense of the beat. From the drummer and bassist too - it's not just Lage.
Dig out a copy of the (obscure) release Mis En Boutielle a New York by the Nikelson trio, a very straightahead bop organ trio session with Lage Lund on guitar and Ari Hoenig on drums (!)
I think this gives a clear idea of where Lage's bop playing was at as of about 10 years ago. I don't know if he can still play in this idiom, but it's certain he's checked that stuff out. I'm not saying anything about his feel good or bad, but it's a more valid point of comparison.
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09-19-2018 05:37 PM
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A bit more cerebral? That's an understatement of the year.
Originally Posted by Robertkoa
I wonder what Miles would say about that? probably not printable.
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I play tamborim, rebolo, triangulo and ganza - for simple beats.
I couldn't play pandeiro even before the arthritis in my thumb. Goddam hard instrument.
I've heard a lot of bateria, but I've never played in one.
A couple of observations:
Playing 16th notes with a shaker would seem simple, but when a good Brazilian percussionist does it, there's an important difference. It swings harder, referring to ginga, Brazilian swing. It's that not-exactly-on-the-math timing.
The guitar comp is basically putting a tamborim pattern in the right hand, with enough editing so it's not too busy. That's worth thinking about when learning to comp Brazilian jazz.
The rebolo (or tan tan) may be good for getting used to the Big Two, without having to explain to your wife why you have surdo(s). Some players use a brush on the outside to get the ganza part, and then play surdo on the skin. I like playing with that instead of drumset sometimes. A good percussionist can do much more with the rebolo than that, but all that stuff is way over my head.
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That's great ...I never do understatements, lol...I have heard him swing ...he has a relaxed swing more behind the beat.Tends to play chords a way behind the beat sometimes ...it's more like Classical Music: Here I can't exactly tell what he is listening to in the Rhythm Section: I would have to intentionally lag a lot to play those chords late like that, Not the Arps so much but the chords .Mike Stern is quite aggressive in swing both his chords and his single note playing.Sounds like he played in some funk bands when young .So both Stern and Lund would be nearly opposite in this regard having ZERO to do with actually being Black or White...it's just how people hear beats and process time..With picking ..some people's mechanics place them later ...longer pickstrokes, playing rest strokes with fingers or pick often shift people later in the beat.. not the speed ...but the lag time from each phrase start and note start and how long it takes their brain and fingers to actually make it happen in real time. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-29-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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No doubt what Miles might say about it might differ from how he really felt? Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I like this...it's funny, people find this stuff so cerebral, and I suppose it is...but I also think it's a direct descendant from Miles' "second great" Quintet.
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You are aware that Miles called Stern 'fat time'? Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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I think so too, most modern jazz is, I suppose? But Herbie also wrote Watermelon Man and Chameleon, tells you where his roots are. Thats not to say I'm the biggest fan of the second quintet... But it's still much better. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
LL stuff has more to do with, like Robertkoa said, Classical music. Thats how it feels to me. It's all fine, but if I want Classical, there are better sources to listen to, jazzed up Classical is not to my taste.
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Lol. No I remember a Stern Interview where he said Miles would sometimes tell him to 'play some of that Jimi Hendrix sh__ " when he wanted distortion and note bending. Originally Posted by christianm77
I saw Stern with Michael Brecker [ 3 hours ] and Stern was sitting down ,just a little chorus really clean , no bending ,playing great ...but Brecker was playing the most amazing stuff -stuff you couldn't even dream up was coming out of his horn and beautiful neo classical stuff from Electronic Wind Instrument...even Stern and the Band were sometimes visibly in awe...
If somebody had taped that -it would have been a classic..Brecker was ridiculously "on" the whole performance.
Listen to how tight Stern doubles Brecker on some of these parts , then takes a long wild solo but parts are really tighter than they look , lol, I mean his body language and looking kind of like Mick Jagger's younger brother and his more Rock tone (not always- when I saw him with Brecker he just had a little chorus) anyway - sometimes you don't notice his precision , and he looks like he's having fun onstage ..
If you listen to Stern play with Brecker ...he can just cruise normally.
If you listen to Metheny ..and Adam Rodgers they both have to pick it up a bit due in part to the more aggressive drummers and bassists that Brecker used:
Metheny has so much excess motion I am surprised he made it to this point...[only a technical criticism- Metheny's musical abilities and writing are sky high ,obviously ]
What a great Solo by Metheny - I recognize a few trademark licks of his but the lines are like melodic bebop (less chorus and delay too so less slurred sounding ) and closer to front of the measure than PM mostly plays at least with his own Rhythm Sections -not easy to play either -he goes for it anyway, he falls behind a bit later but Metheny doesn't only play stuff that's easy for him to do...
Rodgers does the same thing when he plays with Brecker...he tightens up a bit retaining his style ..
But only to a point ....Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-30-2018 at 07:46 AM.
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Originally Posted by aleksandar
I live in Burkina Faso and the bass player I play with can't swing. I guess black people can't swing. Also, I have a happy life, my sweet sugar mama hadn't done left me, so I can't play the blues.
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Lage Lund might be playing more modern nowdays, but in his early days when still in Berklee i used to hear him play every week. He was studying with John Thomas, really about straight ahead lines in the Martino, Benson, Rodney Jones style, the staccato aggressive picking, etc. He really had that stuff down, killing. Guess his musical direction took him on a different path. Which again makes sense, considering where he 's coming from, (since we re talking about black and white musicians in this thread)..
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You can hear that on the trio album I mentioned.
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Trying to be a fiery bop player in NYC is coals to Newcastle
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do you study these or have you really just absorbed this many phrases in everday life Originally Posted by christianm77
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Literally just absorbed
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It’s like bebop - gotta learn those idioms
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i’ve google searched so many of your phrases i’m starting to get advertisements for fish and chips Originally Posted by christianm77
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"Do or bring something superfluous or unnecessary, as in Running the sprinkler while it's raining, that's carrying coals to Newcastle. This metaphor was already well known in the mid-1500s, when Newcastle-upon-Tyne had been a major coal-mining center for 400 years."
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Where is he coming from? In Europe there are others, like ummm Jesse Van Ruler (I think his name?), he's got it, no excuses. Some others I've heard and enjoyed. Originally Posted by Alter
I wanna hear LL playing a dixieland jazz, swing jazz, low down dirty blues. I'd change my mind about his artistic approach then. But my money is he wouldn't fare well in those genres. Could be wrong, and we'll never find out anyway. Cats like this are too hip for it. Steve Swallow wasn't, and that was a revelation.
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Interesting, what's the Steve Swallow example of this? Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
People who can't play dixieland or swing are missing out IMO - there's a deep thing there that's great to connect to.... And it crops up with the most unexpected players too lol. I know Lage did check out Django though, so who knows?
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Someone posted here an interview of Swallow and Scofield, and Steve was talking about his NYC days when he was doing dixie gigs and avantguard jazz gigs. He emphasized that it was going in parallel, sometimes even on a same day, and he had to be authentic in either style, because the old guys in dixie bands wouldn't tolerate any BS. Originally Posted by christianm77
In my mind there is no question Steve Swallow nailed it, the feel he plays with would fit anything, and together with Sco they are unstoppable. Question is... how do you go from this to LL, how the modern jazz ended up here?
Yes, I'm on LL slagging off kick, he wouldn't care, and it brings me joy.
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I know it's old hat now in the thread, but I will say there is a distinct difference in rhythmic undercurrent between working professional jazz musicians in NYC vs Bay Area, drummers in particular. I actually feel like, as a bassist, I don't push as much playing with NYC drummers I've gigged with since I've been back, since they are generally rhythmically very on top of the beat. Whereas even with really good drummers in the bay area, I'd find myself playing more on top of the beat.
So for me, as a bassist, I definitely push when others in the band are more in the center of the beat, but play more in the center when I know the drummer will push. If drummer has a pronounced Elvin-ish lilt (very few do, in my experience), I try to channel Jimmy Garrison, who plays in the center but with a lot of grease (triplets, ghost notes, skips, etc).
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Great to have a bass player's perspective - every rhythm section has its own dynamic.
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The bass player I'm gigging with a lot, a very talented young man, he plays with Gypsy guys, trad guys, and the Smalls kind of crowd. He can play it all, and love it all too.
We were talking about that, and he said something that confirms my view: trad jazz cats who don't have experience with contemporary jazz will have easier time to adjust to it than the other way around. The contemporary jazzers who never played trad are lacking in the rhythm, it's as simple as that.
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Roswell Rudd the trombonist had deep trad roots but also did the avant thing as well as anyone.
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