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Lage Lund is one of the few musicians who explicitly talks about macro time--even though most professional musicians seem to practice this sort of stuff:
80/20 talking about feeling the bigger beats as well. Almost had a lesson with him, but my GARMIN couldn't find his practice space. Chalk that up to my luddite stubborn stupidity!
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08-20-2025 08:46 PM
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Raz is making Barry Harris videos again! This is an old one about displacement:
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A cool Miguel Zenon masterclass where he talks about rhythmic concepts:
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We've mentioned Hal Galper a lot around these parts:
He mentions SECOND LINE, and here's a video from Quincy Davis about that tradition with Geoff Clapp:
Glad that we have a jazz drumming thread, but it's crucial that we don't silo information by instrument. There's so much that we can learn from the drums, even if we don't play the drums (we should all be our best drummer).
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I really like Kalani's channel. Here's some interesting content around how we relate to the pulse:
Last edited by PickingMyEars; 08-21-2025 at 12:14 AM.
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Warne Marsh talking about polyrhythm?
Can anyone translate the narration?
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All great stuff.
As an aside--sort of--I had a gig Saturday with my own group and found myself in the unusual situation of having about two hours to warm-up. Normally I would play for that whole time, but here's what I did:
1. Sat on the sofa for about twenty minutes and did nothing.
2. Did my usual piano stuff for about fifteen minutes.
3. Did my usual drum pad rudiments and coordination stuff and then kept going with some improvising on the drum pad for about thirty minutes total.
4. Took another break.
5. Played guitar for about forty minutes.
Anyway -- definitely the loosest and best I've felt playing in a very very long time. Could've been total coincidence, but also really felt like the rhythm might be part of it. I don't usually have a lot of time to practice in the summers and I've made a point, especially in the last month or so, to make sure that I do my full piano and drum pad routine in what limited time I do have. So ... dunno ... it seems like that stuff is having some payoff.
At any rate, it feels like it.
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25:28 = Bembe rhythm (cowbell)
Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Peter Magadini is another great resource for all things POLYRHYTHM. There's that word again
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All this rhythm talk got me wondering... did anyone ever start a... gasp... rap & hip hop thread on JGF?
I remember many people talking about hip hop years back. Mr. B used to make references to A Tribe Called Quest.
"But it's a JAZZ forum"
Rap and Hip Hop are part of the same tree.
There could be some interesting discussions around rhythm and spoken language. We've already spoken about groove based music, what are the implications of beats based music on the jazz we play? Comping and soloing. Composing.
I didn't realize there was a new Billy Woods album, I like it. I've been stuck listening to Black Thought, MF Doom, ATCQ, Sa Roc, and Aesop Rock for a while.
Be fun to talk about all of that within the context of its jazz lineage and how rap & hip hop can inform the jazz we still play today. Anyone interested?
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That Jazz Drum Exercise I Stole From Jeff "Tain" Watts video reminded me of this little tidbit (aka Shameless Name Dropping) from my previously mentioned rhythmic pedagogy in undergrad experience: Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Jeff "Tain" Watts was a student at Berklee at the same time I was, and we both attended Professor Larry Bethune's "Rhythmic Ear Training" course
...me for the entire semester, Jeff for the first class only, after which he was like "yo, I got this, gonna go play a gig now"
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WHOA!
I got to talk to Tain when he was on a gig with Oz Noy. Speaking of which, Oz Noy was a guest instructor at this combo class I attended in high school. My mom tried to invite him to dinner because she gets excited when she hears a certain accent.
I'd still love to hear about that course you took. Most of my explicit experience with rhythm in college was musicianship classes. Reading rhythms out of a huge spiral bound book. Another forum member here had a similar experience because we went to college together. I'll let him volunteer that connection
The issue I have with the pedagogy of rhythm is that it is so decoupled from the study of harmony, almost like it's a quick detour and back to regular programming. I think that music educators are finally catching up to that reality.
Going back to that "credo-in-progress" that I started this thread with:
Scales, technique, and harmony are the raw material. Rhythm is the synthesis and transformation of raw material into music.
Hard to synthesis when there's nothing there. You can't just study rhythm in isolation. I am asserting that rhythm is what brings all other elements together. Rhythm is what makes it all sound good in the end, but rhythm isn't the end in it of itself. Raw material sets the foundation. My issue is that there isn't much out there about how rhythm organizes and refines those raw foundational materials.
The deeper we dive into the study of rhythm, the more we see how it incorporates everything. The issue is that we seldom discuss advanced concepts of rhythm in our jazz guitar circles. Miles Okazaki talks about the complexities of rhythm. Jonathon Kreisberg talks about rhythm. Mike Moreno. These conversations are not the norm, these conversations are held in the fringe of the wider discourse of music. I wish Lionel Loueke would talk MORE about rhythm, but maybe he sees that there's not a market for that in our jazz guitar community.
Additionally, rhythm is more universally understood. The layperson might not pick up on all the harmonic wizardry we play, but they sure as hell can pick up on faulty rhythm.
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A certain demographic of the forum will quickly make a hiphop thread unenjoyable. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
I do like the Sirius XM Rock The Bells channel from time to time. Anything with a heavy drum machine and a good groove.
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Supersoul already started the thread. For those that are interested... Let the rhythm hit 'em
He's already made some really interesting parallels. All part of the same family tree of music that we discuss here, just like R&B and the Blues. By the way, that SINNERS movie was something else.
For those who aren't interested, all good. There's plenty of threads on JGF to explore. Do you know how many people were vehemently against starting a RHYTHM, SWING, & PHRASING topic like we have here? Now the door is wide open to a whole new world of discourse. Thank you to those who continued to rally after I left.
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Hi all,
As far as PickingMyEars Posts mentions of the Jimmy Raney Book concepts, perhaps I can clarify some of the points. My distinction of polymeter vs polyrhythm could be deemed idiosyncratic. But I think given common use of the terms are largely synonymous, I decided, at least for the purpose of the Raney book the following:
The latter case is somewhat a source of fascination for me (and for PickingMyEars obviously as well), in Jimmy's and other high level players because it suggests thinking about music in a much larger context metrically and otherwise. I got into a little in below article - in particular the Charlie Parker quote section.There is little to conclusively suggest that the terms polyrhythm and polymeter are not interchangeable. However, to describe the nuances of Jimmy’s rhythmic devices, it is necessary to differentiate the two. For analysis purposes, polyrhythm refers to a specific scale, arpeggio or phrase nugget repeated intentionally in rhythm; polymeter refers to phrasing, grouping, and/or accenting notes across the bar line, implying a larger metric space.
Happy Birthday Jimmy Raney 2025: - Jon Raney Substack
There is another element to it as well - and maybe this gets all fuzzy - but fuck it. To the extent that is not something "planned" per se as much as "intuited". For example, I think some of you have experienced a moment - at least one time - of just giving in to playing and letting the ideas flow. It is in this moment that this higher thing happens which includes being ahead of the music - which by necessity - germinates larger appraisals of the scope of the improvisation including larger groupings of measures and asymmetry and tension as a consequence of wanting to play something interesting; often manifesting in polymetric expression of some sort - for example starting an idea staring on beat 3 that is six beats long and manifests over the bar line. In other words, thinking in larger terms can often be brought about by asymmetry and vice versa (e.g. not starting on beat 1).
I think perhaps PickingMyEars point was not that rhythm isn't taught. It obviously is. I think it's more about that rhythm and melodic content are not quite as separable as they are often perceived. Can you create a rhythm and plug in notes? Sure. But it feels a little stilted somehow. I think that a melodic idea - a really good one - comes with the full message altogether. That you can break it down like a musical chemist into its parts only speaks to the analysis. Not the idea itself. I got into that a little here.
Jazz Improvisation and the Big Picture Stuff
Specifically this paragraph
Now many of you may view polymeter/polyrhythm differently and it wouldn't be wrong to do so. For example to play a different pulse against the given meter for example playing 5:4 or a sequence of 1 bar pulse changes quoted in the drummer video in regards to Tain Watts over "Autumn Leaves". To me this feels like the precursor to metric modulation - for example the way Evans and Shelly Manne play "Let's Go Back to the Waltz" - committing to the 4/4 time superimposition for the solo. That time feel comes from the 4:3 so often played by him in waltzes.What's important to stress in these lines is the synergy between rhythm and melodic line. This idea is often frustratingly forgotten, where rhythm and melodic line seem to be treated like separable entities. To my thinking melodic content has no form without it's marriage to the rhythm it's cast in.
But in the end this I suppose all this under the big umbrella of rhythm which is still, in the end, under the bigger tent of music.
Cheers,
Jon
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Sorry, but I've got to take issue with this unfortunately oft-heard trope that "Polymeter and Polyrhythm Are The Same Thing!" Originally Posted by RaneyJR
Thanks to the dissemination of ignorance via the internet, yes, lots of musicians apparently use those two terms interchangeably.
But they are wrong. Period. Full stop. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
The Harvard Dictionary of Music clarifies the difference between polymeter and polyrhythm:
- Polymeter refers to two simultaneous, distinct time signatures (whether explicitly indicated in the score, or implicitly suggested -- and audiated -- due to phrase lengths). The different-length phrases and their downbeats/barlines do not coincide, creating rhythmic overlap...but the subdivisions do coincide.
- Polyrhythm is the simultaneous use of "strikingly contrasted rhythms" within a single, shared meter. (For example, playing triplets against a straight eighth-note rhythm in a 4/4 meter is a polyrhythm, not a polymeter.) In a polyrhythm, downbeats and barlines do coincide...subdivisions do not.
:::gets off soapbox:::Last edited by Bob_Ross; 03-31-2026 at 12:36 PM.
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Many jazz amateurs hunger for more harmonic knowledge, as if some brand new scale or chord will all of a sudden make them sound professional. I've chased that dream too!
I might be wrong here, but a better path forward could be to use rhythm to refine what we already know. Just looking at the "basics" of musicianship. Like how we control where notes begin and end with exacting intention. Or, where phrases begin and end.
Take the random out of rhythm.
Being detail orientated with the rhythm of what we play is just as challenging as the harmonic choices we make. Confidence emanates from the rhythmic control of what we already know. Then we add more harmonic knowledge and refine with rhythm once again. Rhythm shouldn't be left to the bandstand, as we hone harmony in the shed.
Thank you for helping me clarify, RaneyJR. "Rhythm and melodic content are not quite as separable as they are often perceived." Yes, that is what I was trying to say about the pedagogy of rhythm.
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This touches a lot of chords with me ... specifically the way that jazz seems to me a layered music - metrically, harmonically, micro rhythmically - even in terms of intonation. Originally Posted by RaneyJR
I've been reading through your dad's solos on that Aebersold a lot this year mostly as it's great reading practice because it's both challenging but so rewarding musically, but the way the music is written itself speaks volumes about the ways he conceptualised those rhythms and it's a masterclass every time. I need to go back and make more an ear study of his work again. But it is useful to see these things written down too to understand the structure.
Pete Bernstein was very keen to make that 4/4 over 3/4 connection for phrasing in the lesson I had with him, I remember. We were working on a 3/4 version of Tenderly that I cribbed from Bill Evans and he was trying to loosen up and relax my phrasing. He sang Bembe over 4/4 and then modulated to 3/4 and back. Then do it in your playing. Great exercise for anyone reading this that hasn't tried it. Need to get back to it!
It's also interesting how many phrases are grouped in 5's. Even very early on. Here's a thing I cribbed from Django years ago on his Sweet Sue solo. The beaming shows the grouping, and the grouping falls out quite naturally from the shapes he's arpeggiating (apologies for the wayward accidentals).
And then there's the grouping in a slow three against the 4/4, which is actually omnipresent in pop music as well, but a fundamental part of bebop phrasing.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-26-2025 at 06:48 AM.
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Re - the holistic connection of rhythm and pitch choice.
Chord Scale Theory disconnects these two things because a 'correct' chord scale has notes that agree with the overall colour of the chord in any rhythm. So, you can fit any rhythm to any chord scale and in theory it should sound good. And that is a thing you hear modern players doing.
But of course, for bop and so on there's that connection between the dissonant pitch choices (be they passing ones or passing chords) and the rhythms they are used with is incredibly important, as well as way the line is resolved. What makes the Django lick work is not the vertical harmony obviously, but the way it revolves. The combination of harmonic and rhythmic dissonance so to speak, coming to a cadence.
I sometimes joke that if jazz is a language, it is German, because it doesn't make sense till you hear the end of the sentence. (so I'm told, my wife speaks German, not me. Don't # me Holger haha.)
This is something I think you pick up intuitively by transcribing, hearing and feeling the lines, but you can prepare your ear and you sense somewhat by working on rhythm exercises and groupings and so on.
Something else -
I've realised that a lot of what we term 'bebop' technique, such as putting chord tones on the strong beats and so on is actually 'basic western music technique.' If you want a textbook representation of how to use dissonance and consonance in 4/4 both subverting and conforming to expectations, you can look to Mozart, or perhaps 19th century guitar repertoire. It's all in there, and it's super clear.
Actually quite a lot of Barry Harris's teaching seems to be teaching something like this as a foundation. We can see added note scale patterns and so on coming up in Chopin, who of course Barry adored.
But I actually stopped working on Barry stuff for while because I felt the way I was working on it at least, was kind of squaring off my playing too much. This obviously isn't what Barry himself was about either as a player or a teacher - but certainly the added note scales and so on can tend to make everything fall on the beat.
In fact in seems to me that the jazz comes not in thinking about upbeats and downbeats and dissonance (for instance in so called bebop scales) so much as it comes from learning how to fit these ideas to African diaspora concepts of rhythm, where as I think of it, everything is odd time.
The 2-3 clave for instance is a basic organisational element in much of Bird's music and forms the 'home base' of the rhythmic pulse of the music with in built syncopation that feels relaxed in the same way as the beat is the 'home base' in Brahms and syncopation is used to subvert expectation. (Brad Mehldau explains this a lot better) This seem to me the basic organisational principle of Anthropology for example. Aside from the 'big four' which bred inherited from New Orleans music and what we might call the clave, the 'push' is an obvious example of where the upbeat is felt as the beat. Mike Longo encouraged his students to count pushes as if they were the beat - so push on the and of '4' would be counted as '1'.
I think that's why if you play a clave for a while and go back to 4/4, the 4/4 can feel syncopated somehow. My favourite example of this (in odd time) is in the tune Jive Coffee by the Goldings trio, where they set up the 5/4 Take Five 'clave' pattern three times and then play just quarters, and the quarters sound incredibly hip. This is a phenomenon that people have noticed in funk and hip hop too - where the downbeat feels like an upbeat.
This doesn't happen in the same way in European Music, although the use of hemiola in Baroque music for instance, is not a million miles away in concept, but it's always tied to a basic downbeat/upbeat dichotomy (AFAIK - I'd love some counter examples). We should be wary of thinking in terms of that upbeat/downbeat tension/release dichotomy in jazz.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-26-2025 at 06:47 AM.
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You can have music with just rhythm (i.e., drums) but you cannot have music without rhythm. However, we'd rather talk about the flatted fifth and modes of the harmonic minor scale than about the clave and the flam. But if we wanna sound good, we damned well better understand the clave and the flam. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
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I learned from studying with students of Mike Longo that most drums produce tones and those tones are crucial to internalizing rhythm. You could say that the drum is a percussive and melodic instrument, but I don't want to get into an argument over semantics. Originally Posted by Cunamara
This will be my last week posting on the Jazz Guitar Forum for quite some time, I hope. I tend to get too obsessive over what I post and how it's understood by the internet masses. That takes away from time on the instrument.
There have been promising glimpses of dialogue here on the "music pedagogy and rhythm" thread. I am still happy that y'all managed to start a whole topic devoted to rhythm here on JGF. I think we're on the precipice of something here with the pedagogy of rhythm. Not just here, but on other threads as well. I've added the Keto Candomble Codes to my play list.
If you haven't checked out THE JIMMY RANEY BOOK by our very own Jon Raney, I highly recommend getting a copy and opening up your mind to the challenge. He's done a lot to continue his father's legacy. I've never seen a book try to unpack the rhythmic and motivic elements of improvisation quite like Jon's book. Remember, Jimmy wanted to publish that book--but never got around to it. The whole synthesis of the rhythmic with the melodic/harmonic is from that book.
I'm not done with my whole credo-in-progress. I'm trying to get Patrick Bartley to talk even more about the pedagogy of rhythm.
My last post will be an amplified version of ATTYA to fulfill my promise on that thread. Hope to these rhythm threads continue to evolve.
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Here are my two favorite Charles McPherson interviews with Ethan Iverson.
A lot of rhythm talk in both! Here is a snippet from the interview between Charles, Steve Coleman, and Ethan...
Charles McPherson: I think part of the difference between Bird and the rest is how Bird played three against four, where triplets are very much a part of it. That makes the 4/4 rounder. Sonny Stitt, as great as he is, he’s really thinking 4/4. Lou Donaldson told me something about that. Lou said, “We could copy Bird’s notes, but we had trouble trying to copy Bird’s rhythm, we couldn’t really get that. Then when we heard Sonny Stitt, everybody said, ‘ah, ok, I got it. This is the best you’re going to do if you’re going to try to copy Charlie Parker. If you’re trying to get that other thing — unless you really have that naturally yourself — you ain’t going to be able to, you can’t even write that down.”
Lou meant that Sonny Stitt would round it off, and therefore was easier to emulate — and also that if Stitt couldn’t quite get it, probably nobody else could, either.
You remember Supersax and them cats that were doing the Bird solos? Them cats sounded good, and they were pretty much able to do most of it, but there were certain rhythmic nuances they couldn’t quite get. You can’t even write it down.
Even “Ko Ko” is not square.
Charles McPherson and Steve Coleman on Charlie Parker | DO THE M@TH
and here is a more recent interview...
TT 570: Interview with Charles McPherson - by ETHAN IVERSON
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Another video from Quincy Davis!
This one is about the ride cymbal. A lot of his advice has to do with how we setup the SWING:
The technique stuff could translate to pick (drumstick) and string (cymbal). I dunno, give it some thought
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Challenging to find videos around odd groupings on Youtube. If you can find better, please post. These odd groupings will be especially helpful for Rob's THE JIMMY RANEY BOOK study group.
Last edited by PickingMyEars; 03-30-2026 at 05:00 PM.
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This’ll do ya Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Mastering Rhythm With Konnakol - YouTube
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Desmond/Bickert video
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