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First off, I am really excited to be posting a thread in the newly created "rhythm, swing, & phrasing" topic. Years ago, many of us here on JGF rallied around creating a topic specific to rhythm.
In Youtube land, I've posted a slew of comments around music pedagogy. Maybe you've spotted my alter-ego, I am not super creative with my profile names and such.
Thought I'd post some of those comments to the forum. They are all about how rhythm is taught in traditional music instruction. My day job is a k-12 teacher, so I am really interested in pedagogy and how we learn.
I'm submit the posts and videos that resonate with me one-by-one. Might connect with what's already been said here.
They all revolve around the following idea: Scales, technique, and harmony are the raw material. Rhythm is the synthesis and transformation of raw material into music.
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08-08-2025 12:11 AM
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Submitted to Adam and Peter of Open Studio--I've sent a lot of speakpipes around rhythm to their podcast.
Hey Peter and Adam. Since Y'all were brave enough to say "the notes don't matter", I wanted to further the conversation on rhythm with some misconceptions:
1. We over simplify rhythm. We think that repeating a single note with "cool rhythm" is playing rhythmic. Melodic complexity and rhythm go hand and hand.
2. We over complicate the rhythmic space. Not every poly rhythm and odd meter felt inside needs to be expressed explicitly to the listener. Charlie Parker's rhythmic conception was complex, and he played mostly in 4/4.
3. We are taught that rhythm is "not important." In many college level music programs across the country, learning rudimentary piano is a requirement. Find me a program where percussion is an equal requirement.
4. We say that rhythm can't be taught, it must be felt. Imagine if we were taught to "feel" harmony--no theory at all--just like we are told to "feel" the groove.
Each pillar of music is important, but rhythm shouldn't be overshadowed everything else.Last edited by PickingMyEars; 08-08-2025 at 02:11 AM.
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I consider rhythm to incorporate...
1. Articulation--I hate the word "ornamentation" because it misses the point. Articulation is a melodic realization of rhythm. Hammer on's, pull offs, slides, bends, vibrato, tremolo, staccato, and legato articulations ONLY work if you are mindful of the rhythm you are producing with them. Where do they start? Where do they end? Where is the accent? Intensity? Vibrato is very rhythmic, but amateurs treat it as a random event within the meter.
2. Phrasing--what is the macro-time frame work? 1 measure, 2 measures, 4 measures, 8? Longer? Where does the phrase begin and end? How does changing the starting point or ending point effect the phrase?
3. Subdivision--into the regular pulse--whole notes, half notes, quarter notes... etc. How do we subdivide the beat? What is discussed less is how does placing a certain subdivision in a certain place in the measure/phrase effect the pulse (eighth note at the end of the measure vs. dotted quarter, for example).
4. Note Length--where do your notes begin and end? Slow transcription--where do the notes of your favorite players begin and end--when they play quarter notes, eighths, 16ths...etc. The answer might surprise you.
5. Subdivision--irregular--Mike Longo (Dizzy Gillespie's pianist) said that "jazz time is three dimensional." You can still find his RHYTHMIC NATURE OF JAZZ video series on the internet--worth paying for once you find it. Anyway, he talks about stacking tuplets into a rhythmic pyramid that is superimposed on the beat. You end up with a polyrhythmic pulse on top of the beat that informs your swing. For instance, Wes and Grant love using variations of the 6:4 poly-pulse to develop their feel. The West African thing, Longo explains it WAY better than I--hey, these are youtube comments.
6. Polymeter--look up what Jon Raney has to say about his father's playing. Jimmy Raney was a melodic/harmonic genius BECAUSE he was one of the few jazz guitarists in history to REALLY understand how bebop RHYTHM works. Even Sonny Stitt didn't get Charlie Parker's rhythmic conception--because Bird's rhythm was SO DEEP. We hear it as him playing fast or slow--Parker was SO MUCH DEEPER with his rhythm than that. Read Jon Raney's posts and buy his new book. He talks about how the way we group notes creates a polymeter that gives the music inertia.
7. Harmonic Rhythm-it's in the name, but everyone seems to ignore the "rhythm" part. If we just focus on harmony, we overlook what makes those chords move. Voice leading is only part of it. Where the chords fall in the phrase--are they played for two measures, one full measure, or are there multiple chords in one measure- that really helps us hear the tune. Playing arpeggios out of tempo won't help us hear the tune because we aren't hearing the movement. For that matter, let's put accompaniment as whole also in this category. How many of us get so enamored by chord voicings that we forget the rhythm that makes them work.
Each pillar of music is important, but rhythm shouldn't be overshadowed everything else.Last edited by PickingMyEars; 08-12-2025 at 11:36 AM.
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Last edited by PickingMyEars; 08-08-2025 at 12:17 PM.
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Another video. Last summer, I got to talking to Jon Raney about his last book quite a lot--THE JIMMY RANEY BOOK. I know that was previously covered here on JGF, but I would love to turn it into a book study. There's so much to learn in Raney's book that really isn't discussed elsewhere.
Last edited by PickingMyEars; 08-08-2025 at 02:31 AM.
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Last video of the night. Barry talks about 6:4 a lot, but it can be hard to find that on Youtube:
3:4 is also really important. These are rhythmic nuances that I never learned in music school.
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Rhythm turns the base metals of chord tones and scales to gold
I kind of feel that’s the main thing I learned from transcribing. Sometimes the hippest phrases have the simplest note choices.
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and sometimes it is not even that. sometimes even the rhythms are simple and the magic comes from the player playing it like they *really* mean it.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Rhythm is raw material too. You need to know your keys, scales, chords, arps, etc. and have them worked out as 2nd nature. But same with rhythm. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Agree. This is a silly one. Not an accepted colloquial 'rule' but still you see this idea.We over simplify rhythm. We think that repeating a single note with "cool rhythm" is playing rhythmic. Melodic complexity and rhythm go hand and hand.
Agree, this is a foolish one. We're not explicitly taught that rhythm isn't important, but it is taught by omission. Why shouldn't rhythm be an equal requirement to harmony?We are taught that rhythm is "not important." In many college level music programs across the country, learning rudimentary piano is a requirement. Find me a program where percussion is an equal requirement.
Yeah this is idiotic, lots of people say this. Rhythm can easily and should be taught.We say that rhythm can't be taught, it must be felt. Imagine if we were taught to "feel" harmony--no theory at all--just like we are told to "feel" the groove.
Yup. Each pillar is equally important, no one should be ignored, they all need to be learned well.Each pillar of music is important, but rhythm shouldn't be overshadowed everything else.Last edited by Strat-itis; 08-08-2025 at 07:18 AM.
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Thought this thread would be another dud, glad there's some traction here.
My comment essays on rhythm have made me a couple of friends on Youtube, believe it or not.
LT Jazz Guitar, check his channel out:
Last edited by PickingMyEars; 03-30-2026 at 04:17 PM.
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Ari Hoeing giving a guitarist a lesson on rhythm. There's three videos in this "Working with Non-Drummers" series with that particular student:
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Bob DeBoo is my favorite teacher over at Open Studio. Great lesson on integrating poly rhythm into scale practice:
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Patrick Bartley gets into some hip hop phrasing here @ 4:10 mark:
Interesting historical approach with rhythm:
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Another "youtube friend" who should be on everyone's radar is Nathan Borton. I've pushed him to talk about rhythm more and more, and he really delivers here:
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Cecil Alexander. Some are mesmerized by his technique. Some listen to him wax on wax off about chord substitutions. I can't get enough of his rhythmic intent--and I've commented plenty telling him to talk MORE about it:
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Quincy Davis. I had a Skype lesson with him a couple of years back. He's played with Bernstein as well as greats from all over. Here, he talks about over-the-barline phrasing. That's modern BECAUSE it's bebop
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Just a reminder that all of this talk about rhythm DOESN'T mean everything else is ignored. I explain that here on a Patreon comment:
Scales, technique, and harmony are the raw materials. Rhythm is the synthesis and transformation of raw material into music. Many people mistake that philosophy as ignoring harmony, scales, and technique altogether. Without the raw material, rhythm is just an ends to a mean. You can't decouple rhythm from melody and harmony, but you can study HOW rhythm explicitly organizes harmony and melody.
There's a lot of folks on JGF who are also music educators. As an educator myself--not music
--I would love to see y'all expand upon these concepts in rhythm and teach the kiddos. I write about rhythm so much across the internet because I want to learn more about rhythm. There's so much to learn, but rhythm gets the short end of the stick 99% of the time.
Anyway, I posted a BUNCH from what I've found. Please add more of your thoughts and what you've come across on the internet and in your own studies. I'm excited to hear what else is out there about the pedagogy of rhythm.
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Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Percussion != Rhythm Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
...though I don't disagree that some form of unpitched percussion should be required just as strongly as keyboard familiarity is.
Also fwiw, as an undergraduate in music college I took two semesters of "Rhythmic Ear Training" and as a Graduate student at the conservatory I took one semester of "Rhythmic Foundations of Music" ...or, now that I think of it, maybe that wasn't the name of the course, but it was a graduate level class based on understanding and applying rhythm as a structural component of composition and improvisation.
So yeah, programs are out there.
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Poly meter is different than poly rhythm, so I separate them as much as possible. Jon Raney's rhythm material in his book was more polymetric than polyrhythmic.
My rhythmic studies in college were usually in musicianship classes. They involved sight reading and clapping rhythms. That was during my undergraduate "jazz performance" studies in NYC. My friends had similar experiences in other colleges around NYC. I didn't study music in graduate school. If you could dig up some materials, that would be amazing. The name of your course alone sounds really interesting to me!
Most discourse about music--even around these parts--leaves out rhythm. Same on youtube, especially around non-drummers. Same on a lot of other parts of the music internet, whatever label that may be. Whenever I push for more explicit rhythmic instruction online, I get the same response... "you just gotta feel it, man!"
I know that good rhythm pedagogy is out there--it's just a lot harder to find. My own private teacher talks about rhythmic intent every lesson. I wish more people spoke about rhythm--so that we could develop a community around it and dive deeper. There's already plenty of community around harmony and technique--even around how you hold a guitar pick (I went down that rabbit hole easily enough).Last edited by PickingMyEars; 08-08-2025 at 06:50 PM.
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Good thread on a critically important topic in jazz (and music in general).
Miles Okazaki had a video covering the application of drum rudiments to the guitar, prt of his "Fundamentals Of Guitar" book. Can't find it immediately on YouTube since their search function is inept. Good stuff, though.
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I am subscribed to Miles Okazaki's Patreon and talk to him A LOT about rhythm. He did a series on Charlie Christian where he actually got out a snare drum and sticks to illustrate the rhythm and accents on a particular solo. Miles talks about rhythm more than most jazz guitarists I heard on the internet. I tried looking for a good video to capture all that. His Patreon is well worth the price of admission--so much there. Bach, Monk, technique, rhythm, repertoire, gig insights... Originally Posted by Cunamara
I started this thread to get more conversation going around explicit rhythm pedagogy. In order to do that, I need to shut up and see if others will add to the thread. Plus, I really want to temper my forum engagement this time around--for the benefit of me and those that remembered me years ago around these parts. So I'll listen and see where this goes.
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Nice discussion/comments.
I can see where you're coming from and appreciate this. For me, I learned from Satch that melodic simplicity with rhythmic complexity is generally a bit more listenable because the music is more easily enjoyed and processed on a visceral level. When both melodies and rhythms are complex, it becomes a bit too cerebral to enjoy, unless you're just playing to musicians only. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
This is great, but are there other resources/exercises that deal with rhythms at a more basic level? Trying to play dotted quarter notes in one hand, half note triplets in another hand, and sing the melody seems pretty heavy. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
I love that he appreciates all the subtleties of rhythms in the older stuff. He has a video on his channel where he nerds out on Frankie Trumbauer and Lester Young: Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Chapter 3 is a little confusing to me. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
As he plays Grant Green's line, all I'm hearing is the lick starting on consecutive Charleston rhythms:
Bar One: 1, 2&, 4
Bar Two: 1&, 3, 4&
Bar Three: 2, 3&
He says this is 3 against 4, but isn't 3 against 4 basically playing half note triplets?
Next, he mentions quarter note triplets, so ok, I was expecting him to play 6 against 4. But when he demonstrated the lick again, I just hear repeating Charlestons.
Maybe you can clear this up for me.
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In London it seems most of the musicians had had some experience with at least Brazilian percussion, playing Samba in particular. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Poly meter is different than poly rhythm, so I separate them as much as possible. Jon Raney's rhythm material in his book was more polymetric than polyrhythmic.
My rhythmic studies in college were usually in musicianship classes. They involved sight reading and clapping rhythms. That was during my undergraduate "jazz performance" studies in NYC. My friends had similar experiences in other colleges around NYC. I didn't study music in graduate school. If you could dig up some materials, that would be amazing. The name of your course alone sounds really interesting to me!
Most discourse about music--even around these parts--leaves out rhythm. Same on youtube, especially around non-drummers. Same on a lot of other parts of the music internet, whatever label that may be. Whenever I push for more explicit rhythmic instruction online, I get the same response... "you just gotta feel it, man!"
I know that good rhythm pedagogy is out there--it's just a lot harder to find. My own private teacher talks about rhythmic intent every lesson. I wish more people spoke about rhythm--so that we could develop a community around it and dive deeper. There's already plenty of community around harmony and technique--even around how you hold a guitar pick (I went down that rabbit hole easily enough).
There’s a guy called Barack Schmool who was influential in setting this up.
There’s also a big Brazilian community in London which helps.
I think Barack was very aware that UK jazz musicians were lacking input on rhythm and time feel and wanted to rectify this.
I got lessons in Konnakol (from current Soft Machine drummer Asaf Sirkis who seems to teach everyone) through my masters and I think it’s common for all instruments. I know a few guys in London who are Konnakol obsessives - Ant Law and Kourosh Kanani for instance. I think rhythm is emphasised at school here.
One thing I don’t think we have is as much direct input on swing feel.
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If I could say something in general. It’s easy to amass information, it takes a lot of time to internalise things to the level of accuracy and polish that makes them sing.
The internet is a fountain of info, but the work of the musician is the same as it always has been.
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Three bars, 8 8ths to a bar, is 24 notes. Originally Posted by brent.h
He's playing groups of 3 8th notes. So there are six groups (going all the way to 1 on bar 4).
You can tap your foot on the original quarter note. And, you could tap your other foot on the first note of each of the six groups. One foot would be tapping in 4 and the other, in 3.
If the issue is what to call it, I'll defer.
If you compare to half note triplets, the hits are different.
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