Music Pedagogy and Rhythm

[pamosmusic]

I think this is maybe more out there now than it used to be.

A rhythm exercise a la Aaron Parks

I’ve actually recently signed on for some rudimental drumming lessons with a drummer I play with. He’s still in school so it’ll be a few weeks before he’s settled in. Will report back.

[Bob_Ross]

^^^So it's "3 against 4" in the sense that it's a 3/8 against 4/4 polymeter.

It is not triplets; i.e., it is not 3 against 4 in the sense of a polyrhythm where the 3 and the 4 occupy the same amount of time/space.

[vintagelove]

Submitted to Adam and Peter of Open Studio--I've sent a lot of speakpipes around rhythm to their podcast.

Hey Peter and Adam. Since Y'all were brave enough to say "the notes don't matter", I wanted to further the conversation on rhythm with some misconceptions:

1. We over simplify rhythm. We think that repeating a single note with "cool rhythm" is playing rhythmic. Melodic complexity and rhythm go hand and hand.

2. We over complicate the rhythmic space. Not every poly rhythm and odd meter felt inside needs to be expressed explicitly to the listener. Charlie Parker's rhythmic conception was complex, and he played mostly in 4/4.

3. We are taught that rhythm is "not important." In many college level music programs across the country, learning rudimentary piano is a requirement. Find me a program where percussion is an equal requirement.

4. We say that rhythm can't be taught, it must be felt. Imagine if we were taught to "feel" harmony--no theory at all--just like we are told to "feel" the groove.

Each pillar of music is important, but rhythm shouldn't be overshadowed everything else.

Only made it one post in...

Much of this is downright false.

Who is taught , or teaches "rhythm is not important"??? Certainly nobody I've ever learned from, studied or taught next to.

In practically all of those (good) college programs, you are required to take an ear training and sight singing course, of which learning some form of rhythmic solfège (which is more than half the class, because for every single melody you do, it has a rhythm) is required, and practiced daily.

Nobody says rhythm can't be taught.





With whatever respect you think you're due... you're imagining most of these problems.

[Christian Miller]

Is it possible two people going to different music schools might have different experiences?


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[kris]

There are more rhythms in a jazz school than in a classical music school.....

[James W]

There are more rhythms in a jazz school than in a classical music school.....

Not that I know what gets taught at jazz school but I doubt it's more than classical school, judging from my experience as a composition major (and I say this without making a value judgement).

[kris]

Not that I know what gets taught at jazz school but I doubt it's more than classical school, judging from my experience as a composition major (and I say this without making a value judgement).

A classical orchestra had trouble playing simple jazz rhythms in unison.These are my experiences.

[pamosmusic]

A classical orchestra had trouble playing simple jazz rhythms in unison.These are my experiences.

Eh not really mine … maybe playing simple jazz rhythms *with a jazz feel* but that’s not really the same thing.

I would say the lack of popular music literacy is generally a bit of a problem in classical programs, but that’s another discussion.

[PickingMyEars]

I need to post some of Soren's content as well:

If your experience with the pedagogy of rhythm has been different than what I've stated, please include what you were taught. I studied jazz performance in my undergraduate days**. The main curriculum didn't include much rhythm instruction beyond the musicianship clapping classes I mentioned. My friends had similar experiences in other jazz programs. I pursued EXPLICIT rhythm pedagogy--equal to that of my harmonic studies--after college.

So if anyone had a better experience, let me know. Your posts could develop this thread even more and challenge the harmony centric discourse we usually have around the internet.

I'm working on bringing some of the musicians and teachers I mentioned before into this thread. Okay, back to being silent.

**I just want to be clear. I am NOT saying that I am any better of a musician than anyone else here because I studied jazz performance. NOT AT ALL. I didn't know my ass from my elbow. I got in because I auditioned A LOT and I know the dean felt bad for me.

Just saying, we are a JAZZ guitar forum. I paid tuition to study jazz (learned more from my classmates, to be honest). In the JAZZ program, rhythm was an after thought. My friends had similar experiences in NYC schools and some in other parts of the country--I am good friends with music teachers where I've also taught (NYC, Los Angeles, and Washington State). Just wanted to clarify.**

[James W]

A classical orchestra had trouble playing simple jazz rhythms in unison.These are my experiences.

Sure, but this is a different point than your original one about there being more rhythms in a jazz school.

[James W]

Eh not really mine … maybe playing simple jazz rhythms *with a jazz feel* but that’s not really the same thing.

I would say the lack of popular music literacy is generally a bit of a problem in classical programs, but that’s another discussion.

I wonder if a lack of classical music literacy is perceived as a problem in popular music programs?

[pamosmusic]

I wonder if a lack of classical music literacy is perceived as a problem in popular music programs?

Every country is different I guess but in the states it’s still very very very common (not universal but probably a majority) for programs to require jazz majors to take classical lessons during their first two years. Some even require a classical audition. The reverse is not true.

Tonal Harmony is required for jazz majors but jazz Harmony is not required for classical majors. Etc etc.

I love classical music, but they’re a bit stuck in the mud over here in the institutions.

[James W]

Every country is different I guess but in the states it’s still very very very common (not universal but probably a majority) for programs to require jazz majors to take classical lessons during their first two years. Some even require a classical audition. The reverse is not true.

Tonal Harmony is required for jazz majors but jazz Harmony is not required for classical majors. Etc etc.

I love classical music, but they’re a bit stuck in the mud over here in the institutions.

Thanks, I didn't know this.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks, I didn't know this.

Yeah man. You can’t write an improvisation section for a big orchestra or the improviser gets solo pay.

it’s weird.

I think it’s also undoubtedly true of institutions but not particularly true of working “classical” performers. They tend to be more flexible than the institutions they were educated in.

Also some institutions are changing. Peabody for one is getting hip.

[Navdeep_Singh]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned but the most idiomatic bebop rhythmic phrase can be internalized by the intro to “Blues in the Night”. My Mama done told me—-upbeat 8th into a triplet to 2 8ths or (whatever army of 8ths).

[dasein]

Eh not really mine … maybe playing simple jazz rhythms *with a jazz feel* but that’s not really the same thing.

I would say the lack of popular music literacy is generally a bit of a problem in classical programs, but that’s another discussion.

No, there's some truth to this.

I have, historically, had an absolute bear of a time trying to get classically trained musicians to play actual quarter note triplets. They almost never play them evenly, it's always something approximate. A few exceptions, especially if they studied something like konnakol, but they were very much the exception.

It blew my mind, because all of them were much better readers than me, and they cared about the tiniest nuances of phrasing and dynamics for pieces. But this was something they never thought about.

I thought maybe I just got unlucky, until I read an interview with Nicholas Payton talking about the opera he composed, and he complained about the exact same thing about classical players (and he was working with the orchestra for the NY Metropolitan Opera, so they were not slouches).

[Navdeep_Singh]

The intrinsic and reciprocal relationship between melody and rhythm is best exemplified by Indian classical music, of course. Dizzy defined jazz and the “marriage between European harmony and African rhythms”. Of course, there is no European harmony in a microtonal music (the same 12 note chromatic scale that Barry Harris said forms our musical universe is divided into 16 notes in Hindustani and Carnatic Music. To Echo Christian’s wonderful comment about the role of the musician being the same as it ever was, the Indian classical musician begins their journey as a humble chaiwallah to their Guru, only to emerge as a competent musician 15-20 years later.

Indian music has no European harmony. What it does have, though is 72 ragas and the Tala system. The Tala system, is based NOT on subdivisions bout ADDITIVE rhythms. Simply stated, where do the hits lie?

[James W]

The intrinsic and reciprocal relationship between melody and rhythm is best exemplified by Indian classical music, of course. Dizzy defined jazz and the “marriage between European harmony and African rhythms”. Of course, there is no European harmony in a microtonal music (the same 12 note chromatic scale that Barry Harris said forms our musical universe is divided into 16 notes in Hindustani and Carnatic Music. To Echo Christian’s wonderful comment about the role of the musician being the same as it ever was, the Indian classical musician begins their journey as a humble chaiwallah to their Guru, only to emerge as a competent musician 15-20 years later.

Indian music has no European harmony. What it does have, though is 72 ragas and the Tala system. The Tala system, is based NOT on subdivisions bout ADDITIVE rhythms. Simply stated, where do the hits lie?

There is European music that uses microtones, though.

[Christian Miller]

No, there's some truth to this.

I have, historically, had an absolute bear of a time trying to get classically trained musicians to play actual quarter note triplets. They almost never play them evenly, it's always something approximate. A few exceptions, especially if they studied something like konnakol, but they were very much the exception.

It blew my mind, because all of them were much better readers than me, and they cared about the tiniest nuances of phrasing and dynamics for pieces. But this was something they never thought about.

I thought maybe I just got unlucky, until I read an interview with Nicholas Payton talking about the opera he composed, and he complained about the exact same thing about classical players (and he was working with the orchestra for the NY Metropolitan Opera, so they were not slouches).

Yeah triplets is one of the real differences.

But classical music is its own thing. Rubato, phrasing, interpretation. Very detailed. Even subdivision of the beat, not so much.

But maybe less so going forward. Classical musicians quite often take pop and jazz gigs as well these days and have a broader outlook. Orchestras tend to have quite a bit of cultural inertia associated with them. Chamber ensembles may vary. Groups playing post minimalist music for example have to be in touch with that groove sensibility.

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[AllanAllen]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned but the most idiomatic bebop rhythmic phrase can be internalized by the intro to “Blues in the Night”. My Mama done told me—-upbeat 8th into a triplet to 2 8ths or (whatever army of 8ths).

Which intro?

[AllanAllen]

I figured it out. This album is so great.

[GuyBoden]

Hal Galper recommends tapping out the rhythm to Bebop heads you know (or think you know) without singing the melody.
Then apply this rhythm to your improv lines.

This is a very good exercise in my opinion.

Edit: Moved, because I think that this post belongs in this thread.

[pamosmusic]

Hal Galper recommends tapping out the rhythm to Bebop heads you know (or think you know) without singing the melody.
Then apply this rhythm to your improv lines.

This is a very good exercise in my opinion.

Edit: Moved, because I think that this post belongs in this thread.

dude yeah.

my little drumming obsession came from doing this.

Got it from Aaron Parks, but still

[avjazi]

I really like your way of putting it, rhythm as the element that transforms the raw material into music. ? Too often rhythm is treated as secondary in teaching, when in reality it’s what makes everything come alive. Curious to see the examples and videos you’ll share next!

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[PickingMyEars]

Okay. Since avjazi prompted me, I'll share some more from my rhythm pedagogy playlist.

Christian is hip to Steve Coleman. Miles Okazaki is on this one. Didn't I tell you all to join his Patreon! Anyway, I think this is the masterclass where Coleman goes into his rhythmic concepts:

Peter Magadini is another great resource for all things POLYRHYTHM. There's that word again :

These are old videos I still go crazy about--CK Ladzekpo talking about West African Drumming: