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Not just playing fast, but it's how fast he's thinking! Remember, he was only 14. And yes, we've all seen too many 10 year old virtuosos on all instruments, including jazz guitar, but I have never seen real improv at this level from a young teenager. He's obviously gone on to be arguably the best ever (not my favourite, that's for sure) but to witness him from 1985 play like this, is, well, scary to me. Not to the point where I wanna just give up, but for a minute there that's how it made me feel. I'll get over it, I'm sure, but frankly, I'm still recovering...
Originally Posted by ragman1
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03-08-2023 12:59 AM
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+1 Originally Posted by princeplanet
Not just playing fast, but it's how fast he's thinking! Remember, he was only 14. And yes, we've all seen too many 10 year old virtuosos on all instruments, including jazz guitar, but I have never seen real improv at this level from a young teenager. He's obviously gone on to be arguably the best ever (not my favourite, that's for sure) but to witness him from 1985 play like this, is, well, scary to me. Not to the point where I wanna just give up, but for a minute there that's how it made me feel. I'll get over it, I'm sure, but frankly, I'm still recovering...
I wouldn't mind Ragman's comment at all.
A person who sits at home in front of a computer and has never played a jazz concert can very easily say anything.
I am full of admiration for the playing of young Chris.His playing is sensational and he plays like he has no stage fright.
At 14, I didn't even know what jazz meant.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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There are always these young people who are prodigies or have unusual talents at an early age. It's the way it is. If we were Indians we'd probably be talking about past lives. A scientist might talk about unusual brain wiring, I've no idea. Some people get a bang on the head and start talking fluent Chinese! Some do music, some do art, some do math to an extraordinary degree when young. These things exist, savants and all that. What do I know? Originally Posted by princeplanet
Not just playing fast, but it's how fast he's thinking! Remember, he was only 14. And yes, we've all seen too many 10 year old virtuosos on all instruments, including jazz guitar, but I have never seen real improv at this level from a young teenager. He's obviously gone on to be arguably the best ever (not my favourite, that's for sure) but to witness him from 1985 play like this, is, well, scary to me. Not to the point where I wanna just give up, but for a minute there that's how it made me feel. I'll get over it, I'm sure, but frankly, I'm still recovering...
But the question of the thread is how does it make me feel about my own playing? It doesn't. Comparing myself with these sorts of talent is a pointless exercise.
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What on earth is provocative about it? Does it not provide food for thought/reflection on a comparative basis? Originally Posted by James W
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Nobody here, so far as I am aware, is a 14 year old saxophone player, still less such a prodigious one. Originally Posted by blackcat
I'm struggling to think what fruitful food for thought the topic is likely to elicit. Like I say, the mindset behind such a question is just pure ranking - and the poor OP is so apparently consumed with this competitive philosophy he thinks it spawned most great art!
So yeah, Chris Potter, what a stylist. The guy was a prodigy, how about that! It's no big deal to me because I wouldn't compare myself to him. I'm quite close to being an exact contemporary of Julian Lage but I don't compare myself to him either.
I think the thing is, if the reason you're playing an instrument, working hard and practising, is to out-do someone else - that to me is nonsensical. The reason ought to be to make some fantastic music, where the question of who is the 'best' is rendered redundant.
This is not food for thought for me, it's pretty obvious.
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Would this sort of thing count for anything? Originally Posted by James W
I await the absolute reams of evidence you'd need for this to be anything other than a sweeping statement of incredibly grand proportions.
'Cutting contests continued into the 1940s. Art Tatum usually won the contests he engaged in, beating out such notable pianists as Fats Waller, Teddy Wilson, Count Basie, Earl "Fatha" Hines, Albert Ammons, Harry Gibson, Pete Johnson, Marlowe, Clarence Profit, and Claude Hopkins.'
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Yeah, people like Liszt and Thalberg participated in these sorts of things in the 19th century. Still an absolutely miniscule proportion of art made though, wouldn't you say? Originally Posted by blackcat
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Does cutting contest mean trading fours with another soloist? Or is it just trying to play your best? If it's the latter, what's new?
Early on, meaning 1920s, supposedly, you could be replaced at your gig by a guy who outplayed you. That's the earliest description I'm aware of.
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Because dudes with beards selfishly took over all of the other challenging styles of guitar playing. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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Two talents together is a really big deal.
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Sorry, I got nothing from it - just a lot of notes. Ben Webster OTOH, I could listen to all night.
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That reminds me of a Ben Webster quote… (courtesy of Duncan Lamont)
’you know those young cats… the way they play all them notes…….
…..
I wish I could do that.’
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Well, at least all the art I consider to be great, anyway (from reading histories and biographies etc). But hey, I'm OK with people disagreeing, even if they choose to be rude about it. Originally Posted by James W
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'just a lot of notes'... Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
I would add - just a lot of very good notes.
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Cutting contests wouldn't cut it in today's culture - not "inclusive" enough... people's feelings may get hurt... Originally Posted by blackcat
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Absolutely right. In the 'world beating' (sic) politically correct (?), strictly non-judgemental, UK for instance it would count for zilch Originally Posted by princeplanet
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My perception is that people’s natural competitiveness gets papered over with a veneer of touchy feely bullshit. I think it would be healthier and more fun to have it in the open
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Well said. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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But there are musical 'competitions' out there, e.g. the Herbie Hancock Institute of Jazz one, they had the guitar one in 2019. I admit I checked out several or more of the sets from the semifinals of that. TBH though, at the level they were at, it really doesn't make sense to me to choose a 'winner', and no, my purported 'natural' competitiveness is not being disguised by anything touchy or feely by thinking this.
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if you don’t feel that way - I envy you as I’m a naturally competitive person! Originally Posted by James W
But I do feel there can be a productive venue for competition (aside from things like the Monk prize) that doesn’t merely manifest itself in less healthy ways. People feel the need to ‘be cool’ all the time, even though it’s clear they are not ‘cool’, and it’s OK. They just got told they should act a certain way. Usually it manifests as passive aggression haha - or snarky comments behind each others backs.
it’s a load of old bollocks and I actually think it exacerbates poor mental health. And if you go to a college jam season you realise that everyone is 100% in competition and vibing each other even if they say they’re not. You can’t tell people how to feel.
I actually really appreciate a friend of mine (a conservatoire professor) confiding that he feels deeply competitive with other players of his instrument when he gets passed over for a gig.
It’s not necessarily the most productive feeling in that context but it’s important to recognise it. And I think musicians are discouraged from doing that. Being your own master is about emotional literacy and self control not being emotionless.
the cutting contest is a fun way to blow off steam! Not everyone digs it but it can be fun for the players AND the audience. And just like in sports we can all be friends and respect each other afterwards. You also can’t deny it’s a real part of music history. Certainly in jazz.
It may not produce the most lasting music, but I’m happy to hear some young people play all the notes.
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I think most musicians ( me included ) like the idea that its all about the music mannn, but are actually competitive with other players on the same instrument. I learnt this by being in a pub rock band with another lead guitarist. We were supposed to trade solos etc but ended up bitter enemies! Originally Posted by James W
There are even examples in music history:
Santana - didn't play guitar for a couple of years after he saw Hendrix.
Clapton - famously fuming after an at the time an undiscovered Hendrix sat in with Cream and blew him away.
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Remember kids, less is more.
Except when more is more. Then it's time to BURN MOTHERFUCKER!
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Coleman Hawkins once had to drive to a gig on another state without any sleep because he didn’t want Prez to get the better of him in a jam. Originally Posted by KingKong
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'had to' lol! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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