How does this make you feel about your own playing?

**princeplanet** · 03-09-2023, 10:31 AM

When I used to teach guitar I had to constantly remind students that "Music is not a sport, it's not a race, it's not about how fast you can play your scales - it's about telling compelling stories with your instrument..."

It never made any difference

- there was more often than not some competitive streak fuelling their practice. "Ah well, at least they're practicing" I'd think to myself, but I always tried to steer their natural competitive urge towards a more artistic end, as in "yeah, player X plays fast, but listen to player Y, listen to the cool note choices, phrasing, expression etc". I'm pretty sure all the guitar teachers on this forum would relate to this, it's just directing students' competitive nature in a more musical direction.

Another thing I definitely noticed is how much faster students progressed if they had close friends or siblings they felt they needed to impress. It was no surprise of course, I was no different coming up.

**princeplanet** · 03-09-2023, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Coleman Hawkins once had to drive to a gig on another state without any sleep because he didn’t want Prez to get the better of him in a jam.

Now that's surprising, I always thought Hawkins had no fear of anyone. He seemed comfortable toe to toe with Parker, didn't he?

**kris** · 03-09-2023, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

When I used to teach guitar I had to constantly remind students that "Music is not a sport, it's not a race, it's not about how fast you can play your scales - it's about telling compelling stories with your instrument..."

It never made any difference

- there was more often than not some competitive streak fuelling their practice. "Ah well, at least they're practicing" I'd think to myself, but I always tried to steer their natural competitive urge towards a more artistic end, as in "yeah, player X plays fast, but listen to player Y, listen to the cool note choices, phrasing, expression etc". I'm pretty sure all the guitar teachers on this forum would relate to this, it's just directing students' competitive nature in a more musical direction.

Another thing I definitely noticed is how much faster students progressed if they had close friends or siblings they felt they needed to impress. It was no surprise of course, I was no different coming up.

Or maybe it's just that some people talk faster and others slower with pauses.

**grahambop** · 03-09-2023, 10:53 AM

Sonny Stitt was a ferocious ‘cutter’ by all accounts. There is a great passage in Art Pepper’s ‘Straight Life’ where he describes being challenged to play Cherokee by Stitt when he (Art) was in his usual terrible state, and having to summon up every last resource to get the better of Sonny.

There’s also a story by Ronnie Scott about when Sonny played at his club, and challenged Ronnie to play Cherokee (again!) in all 12 keys. Fortunately Ronnie had coincidentally been practising just this, so he kept up ok (somewhat to Stitt’s surprise!).

**Bobby Timmons** · 03-09-2023, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

When I used to teach guitar I had to constantly remind students that "Music is not a sport, it's not a race, it's not about how fast you can play your scales - it's about telling compelling stories with your instrument..."

Nah, I don't think that's accurate. Some sort of technical skill is what makes instrumental music interesting. You have to work towards that somehow.

**princeplanet** · 03-09-2023, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Sonny Stitt was a ferocious ‘cutter’ by all accounts. There is a great passage in Art Pepper’s ‘Straight Life’ where he describes being challenged to play Cherokee by Stitt when he (Art) was in his usual terrible state, and having to summon up every last resource to get the better of Sonny.

There’s also a story by Ronnie Scott about when Sonny played at his club, and challenged Ronnie to play Cherokee (again!) in all 12 keys. Fortunately Ronnie had coincidentally been practising just this, so he kept up ok (somewhat to Stitt’s surprise!).

Yeah, from all the historical accounts I love to read about the Bebop era, it certainly seems it was just one big "competition". While it created many monsters, which we still celebrate, it should be remembered that occasionally a talented, yet shy player found it impossible to co-exist among the macho alpha males that seemed to dominate the scene. Some real gems fell by the wayside and became casualties, unfortunately. Anyone ever heard Tina Brooks?
https://www.bluenote.com/artist/tina-brooks/

**KingKong** · 03-09-2023, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Yeah, from all the historical accounts I love to read about the Bebop era, it certainly seems it was just one big "competition". While it created many monsters, which we still celebrate, it should be remembered that occasionally a talented, yet shy player found it impossible to co-exist among the macho alpha males that seemed to dominate the scene. Some real gems fell by the wayside and became casualties, unfortunately. Anyone ever heard Tina Brooks?

Obviously you hear rumours on line a lot these days and it was a long time ago, but one of the things I read about the bebop was that it was hard on purpose, to stop other people from nabbing it.

**kris** · 03-09-2023, 02:37 PM

Was Pat Martino playing too fast and too many notes?
I loved and respected him for that.

**princeplanet** · 03-10-2023, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by kris

Was Pat Martino playing too fast and too many notes?
I loved and respected him for that.

Pat is the only Jazz guitarist, in my opinion, that could sound compelling playing continuous 8ths for 5 minutes (except for when he liked to go into those repetitive loops for 30 seconds or so - I always hated that!). Momentum like a steam train, and always surprising twists and turns in the melodic line. Not everyone's cup of tea though, was he?

**StringNavigator** · 03-11-2023, 11:34 PM

Of all instruments, the guitar is the most marked by competition. Faster... Louder... Longer... Bigger... The most notes...
Guitards or Gunslingers...?

Of course, you'll rarely play in a group with two bassists or two drummers or two pianists. They exist, of course, but they are the exception. So, any competing egos are rare. And two dueling banjoists will probably be thrown out of the club before anything gets started, so the Star Complex has little chance to take root in non-guitards.

While two singers can sing in harmony, and whole brass sections play their parts together, and two organists can trade 8's, but get two guitarists in a room and it's a testosterone driven cat-fight... Like a Buddy Rich vs Jerry Lewis exhibit.

Oh, they buy gaudy, pay big, and show off their lustrous finishes, gold trim, mother of pearl inlays, and the luxurious cutaways of their instrument (Florentine or Venetian!). The frustrated trumpet players can't compare. You rarely see pianos (pianni?) with the guy's name on it...

Why, they even compete for how low they can strap their gitters and still play. (They pray for long arms and short legs.) This is most telling as it shows the mental connection often exhibited, but unspoken, between the phallic guitar and their nether regions as the race around the stage soloing wildly with their necks held up vertical with ecstatic facial spasms. All very competitive.

Even a self-description will include juvenistic terms such as "Lead-Guitar or Rhythm-Guitar...". As if there were two instruments instead of one Whole-Guitar. Piano players don't say, "Oh, Bobby is our Lead... the other dude is Rhythm..." No guitarist claims to be the band's Whole.

And then the first thing they do at a session is turn the amp up to 9 to destroy your hearing and ruin any chance you might hear their mediocrity afterwards. Of course, any guitarist will deny all this. But the rest of us know... we know.

::

**jbromusic** · 03-12-2023, 01:58 PM

Potter sounds fantastic here. Yeah, he's 14 and has a ton of chops and facility. That's what most 14-17 year old musicians are concerned with. But there a ton of great ideas in his solo. It's not a bunch of fast, meaningless BS.

**SandChannel** · 03-12-2023, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by StringNavigator

Of all instruments, the guitar is the most marked by competition. Faster... Louder... Longer... Bigger... The most notes...
Guitards or Gunslingers...?

Of course, you'll rarely play in a group with two bassists or two drummers or two pianists. They exist, of course, but they are the exception. So, any competing egos are rare. And two dueling banjoists will probably be thrown out of the club before anything gets started, so the Star Complex has little chance to take root in non-guitards.

While two singers can sing in harmony, and whole brass sections play their parts together, and two organists can trade 8's, but get two guitarists in a room and it's a testosterone driven cat-fight... Like a Buddy Rich vs Jerry Lewis exhibit.

Oh, they buy gaudy, pay big, and show off their lustrous finishes, gold trim, mother of pearl inlays, and the luxurious cutaways of their instrument (Florentine or Venetian!). The frustrated trumpet players can't compare. You rarely see pianos (pianni?) with the guy's name on it...

Why, they even compete for how low they can strap their gitters and still play. (They pray for long arms and short legs.) This is most telling as it shows the mental connection often exhibited, but unspoken, between the phallic guitar and their nether regions as the race around the stage soloing wildly with their necks held up vertical with ecstatic facial spasms. All very competitive.

Even a self-description will include juvenistic terms such as "Lead-Guitar or Rhythm-Guitar...". As if there were two instruments instead of one Whole-Guitar. Piano players don't say, "Oh, Bobby is our Lead... the other dude is Rhythm..." No guitarist claims to be the band's Whole.

And then the first thing they do at a session is turn the amp up to 9 to destroy your hearing and ruin any chance you might hear their mediocrity afterwards. Of course, any guitarist will deny all this. But the rest of us know... we know.

::

As a guitarist to another guitarist, I hope you can get some help to overcome the self-loathing. And if you don't think there is maddening competition going on with other instruments, I'd avoid getting too close to Berklee.

**Bobby Timmons** · 03-12-2023, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Pat is the only Jazz guitarist, in my opinion, that could sound compelling playing continuous 8ths for 5 minutes (except for when he liked to go into those repetitive loops for 30 seconds or so - I always hated that!). Momentum like a steam train, and always surprising twists and turns in the melodic line. Not everyone's cup of tea though, was he?

Pat rulez

**wintermoon** · 03-12-2023, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Pat is the only Jazz guitarist, in my opinion, that could sound compelling playing continuous 8ths for 5 minutes (except for when he liked to go into those repetitive loops for 30 seconds or so - I always hated that!). Momentum like a steam train, and always surprising twists and turns in the melodic line. Not everyone's cup of tea though, was he?

Don't forget Raney and Farlow

**Litterick** · 03-12-2023, 11:09 PM

How does this make you feel about your own guitar?

Carved and carved again.

**fep** · 03-12-2023, 11:45 PM

Doesn't change a thing, I already know I'm not that good of a guitar player.

**kris** · 03-13-2023, 02:06 AM

There are a lot of guitarists playing at the world level. Their playing makes young people buy guitars and try to imitate their idols.
This is a very positive and valuable phenomenon.
But will you find another guitar genius like Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Wes Montgomery and many other guitar geniuses. They simply have great artistic achievements and are simply legends.I love all genius guitarists - this is the real world of art.

**ragman1** · 03-13-2023, 07:02 AM

How does this make you feel about your own playing?

It makes me want to THROW UP and KILL MYSELF! ALL RIGHT? HAPPY NOW???

How does this make you feel about your own playing?-index-jpg

**kris** · 03-13-2023, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

How does this make you feel about your own playing?

It makes me want to THROW UP and KILL MYSELF! ALL RIGHT? HAPPY NOW???

Don't do it and enjoy the music you hear.Music is a medicine.

**princeplanet** · 03-13-2023, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

How does this make you feel about your own playing?

It makes me want to THROW UP and KILL MYSELF! ALL RIGHT? HAPPY NOW???

Hehe, well, let's say it's a 2 step program- step 1 is your reaction above. Step 2 is to convince yourself it's still worth being a (mortal) musician.

"We are all of us in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars..." etc