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Wes did some very great, very inventive things, but if you think for one second that he wasn't a lick-based player then you're fooling yourself.
I disagree with this statment somewhat. I know around ten Wes solos and each one is different and unique. He repeats very little. If you are correct, then he knew an amazing amount of licks and knew perfectly how to place them together. It seems like his solos are perfectly crafted and I often think that he could have composed them or planned them out in some way. You rarely see the same lick twice on an album. In his videos you can see moments of amazing ability chops wise at incredible speed, so I think all of the basic eigth note playing easily poured out of him spontaniously. Also, if you hear 2nd takes from some of his songs they are very different from the 1st takes.
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03-03-2011 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FatJeff
I'm a big 'Soul Jazz' fan (or whatever the term is) so there's a lot about Green's simplicity and groove that I find appealing. That said, I love me some Wes!Last edited by Jazzpunk; 03-03-2011 at 11:05 PM.
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yuk yuk Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
If you don't dig Grant Green, I'm pretty sure you're stuffed with straw and being controlled by an evil puppet master from beyond the grave.
Was had "better" chops, less obvious licks, and a killer CH approach, no doubt. Grant Green played good music licks and all. Joe Pass can leave them both in the dust... I don't own a single Pass album though. I have 30+ albums of Wes and GG. Better isn't really better to all ears.
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Grant Green, Kenny Burrell and Wes were the three guys that lured me down the jazz rabbit hole (come to think of it, it's pretty lonely in this rabbit hole so maybe I should be pissed! Originally Posted by JonnyPac
yuk yuk
Was had "better" chops, less obvious licks, and a killer CH approach, no doubt. Grant Green played good music licks and all. Joe Pass can leave them both in the dust... I don't own a single Pass album though. I have 30+ albums of Wes and GG. Better isn't really better to all ears. ).
I listen to all kinds of nerdy stuff now but those guys will always have a special place in my collection!
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One of the thoughts that comes to mind is that I can easily listen to Wes all day long. I can't do that with any other guitar player, and maybe not any other musician. Even his later stuff with all the sweetening has some of the most incredibly inventive and swinging solos on it. (Chim Chim Cheree on the Goin' Out of My Head album comes to mind)
I checked my music collection for albums by artists mentioned in the last few posts and my #1 is pretty evident.
Joe Pass - 5
Grant Green - 5
Kenny Burrell - 6
Howard Roberts - 12 (not including the hideous Antelope and Equinox things)
Wes - 32
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Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
Well if it's turning into a 'personal #1 thread' I'd have to put Scofield above Green and Wes in terms of guitarists that I listen to most often.
(climbing into my flame suit!)
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No freakin way! Abercrombie is better, and had more chops, and was more melodic, and played cooler licks, and wore nicer clothes!! Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
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Hi all,
I like this thread because as far as I read, people here are discussing their ideas, argumenting, but with good arguments from every side.
My 2 cents : I never really dig GG, I must admit he plays well, has a very nice tone, but his playing never really touched me for some reason. I really tried to listen some albums, but even if the music was good, it appeared to me more as a "party music" you can put and have friends chilling (sorry for my english !). I hope one day I'll change my mind
Not to compare them, but as he was mentioned, Wes is in my opinion a true genius and his ideas and style are striking. One thing that impressed me too is his relaxed attitude while playing, it always seems so easy. It's a shame those guys didn't had the opportunity (as far as I know) to share in depth their ideas about guitar and music in a book or a video. A lot of people did that after their death, but you never know how each player thinks when he plays.
have swing
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Well that stache was pretty fierce, I'll give you that. Originally Posted by FatJeff
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You sure that isn't Derek Smalls? Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
Well that stache was pretty fierce, I'll give you that.
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I am a Buddhist, so it took me a # of days to respond to this, because I think opinions are, well just opinions, but I find this guys comments of why somebody would find Grant Green to be (popular), and is a harmonically & limited player, almost as annoying as the person (on this web site) who said Miles Davis was technically limited & mediocre. Number 1, how many guitarist had Elvin Jones/McCoy Tyner in a rhythm section, or Wilber Ware ? Art Blakey? Kind of makes a statement. As far as him being harmonically limited? As, compared to who? I think his chord substitutons over "Oleo" was such a genius rearangement, critics said he could'nt nail the head, cause it was so over their heads they could'nt hear his substitutions (which Wolf Marshall did a great job of explaning in his book). The "standards" LP shows he could play the hell out of standards. How much technique do you need to make you happy, I am sure James Emery could give you that (with soul), but Grant Green was burnin, had harmonic sophistication, complex rhythmic feel, and blues feel in abundence, what will make you happy?
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I think I have all Grant's albums as a leader and the bigger part of his albums as a sideman. Never get tired of listening to them. But I am a bit of a Grant Green freak.
I also have almost all Wes' albums..... maybe I'm just a freak
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maybe you just dont like players that really swing? Originally Posted by FatJeff
probably THE two guitar most players horn players dont hate on for their "time". there is a reason why he was on so many records and id say 70% is his rhythm.
though GG is more just about SOUL. GB is a crazy technician and harmonically about as sophisticated as anyone. but yes, as stated before, you dont have one without the other.
my top 3 GG's would have to be:
1. Solid
2. Into Somethin (Larry Young)
3. Green Street
but the all time GG solo for me is "I Wish You Love" on Street Of Dreams. that solo is about as soulful as any i have ever heard by ANYONE. when he was on, he was ON.
I think that with GG you almost need to just feel him. I have heard that he never really got comfortable being in the studio. you can kind of hear his nerves on a lot of records. but its charming to me. definitely one of the greats. there is only so much technique and harmonic smokescreen i want to hear from most people's guitar. at the end of the day its just who plays from the heart and is freaking funky.Last edited by mattymel; 07-09-2011 at 11:24 PM.
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Again.... GG had killer "A" list rhythm section players. Especially good drummers. Elvin Jones, Blakey..... etc. The hip hop guys sample GG records for that reason.
WM had adequate players to back him up.... but not top notch. Who's the best drummer he ever played with? Plus I HATE the post Riverside, pop cover tune, WM period. Super cornball bullshit. Wes played great guitar over all of it.... but the tunes make me want to barf.
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I love Wes too. Some of those tunes were hip, like "Bumpin," and others. I read some where that Wes's group would lay down the tracks, then the producers would over dub the string stuff. I wish some body could wipe the string overdubs off those tracks, and release the original small group tracks, it would be hip to hear some off that stuff with out the string overdub's. On another note, I have read that Wes sat in with Coltrane's group (when Dolphy was in the band!). Too bad none of that was ever recorded!
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Grady Tate=adequate? Jimmy Lovelace=adequate? Jimmy Cobb=adequate? Something about THAT comment makes ME wanna BARF! Originally Posted by Stratocaster
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I guess I'm repeating myself, but I really like the pop albums put out by Wes and Grant. If you wanna know what makes me barf, turn on the radio or television.
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I jjust started listening to Grant Green several months ago, and I like him for much the same reason I like J. S. Bach and similar Baroque composers. GG plays amazing melodic lines, and like a Baroque composer, the lines are listenable with minimal harmonic support - they hold up beautifully with just bass and drums. It is more an intellectual appreciation perhaps than other harmonically oriented players but I really do like what Grant Green does with his melodies.
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I googled "Grant Green" and "Jazz Guitar Forum" and it brought me to this thread. As usual, your comments have been both informative and entertaining.
I have six Grant Green Albums and three Wes Montgomery Albums.
I never like every song on anybody's album, and am happy with just getting 2 or 4 songs tha I can connect with.
Grant Green has been able to do at least that for me. I still like Wes, but my taste leans toward Grant Green. I love his "Standards" album, and close behind is his 2 CD set with Sonny Clarke.
Greens' tone and driving guitar playing are what drew me in, even if I do often hear certain motifs repeated.
I am presently learning "I'll Remember April" off his "Standards" Album, and I love all the long runs.
He did have some really great Rhythm sections, like one of you indicated, which is a very important part of what makes me like a song. The song "It Ain't Necessarily So" really showed me how soulful and bluesy he could get. Thanks for lending an ear.
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I'm revisiting the "Complete Quartets with Sonny Clark." Anyone who has questions about GG's validity should check it out. My desert island GG choice. Oleo, Tune Up, Airegin, Round Midnight et al. I just love his phrasing and the way he swings. It makes me appreciate jazz and the variety of approaches to jazz guitar more. Disparaging him because he wasn't as sophisticated as Wes is irrelevant. (A real nice way to get a handle on rhythm changes is to study his lines on Oleo--there are two takes of it on the 2-CD set.)
Last edited by whatswisdom; 07-31-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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You might also like to hear Green's version of "So What" by Miles Davis. It is on Green's "Sunday Mornin' " album, a religious/spiritual album he made.
Amazon.com: Sunday Mornin': Grant Green: MP3 Downloads
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That's where we differ. :-) Originally Posted by whatswisdom
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Throwin' on this side of Grant's playing and headin' to the beach on a gorgeous California day always puts me in a good mood!
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And we can all live in harmony. Why can't Washington DC do the freakin' same! Originally Posted by FatJeff
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My thoughts on GG on a scale of 1-10:
Ideas...5
Swing...9
Technique...6
Style...10
Feel good vibe...10
Personally I think he shines in all the most important areas. But most importantly, he is INSTANTLY recognizable. At the end of the day, you either like him or you don't. But at least we all have an opinion. There are 1000 guitarists that play more stuff, faster, and nobody cares. That says something.
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