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The part about "Even in death" upset me. You inserted Wes' financial success into the thread. We all know there was probably room for only one guitar hero at that time. It might be called the beginnings of "smooth jazz" and what comes with that crowd. Pre George Benson. Maybe Wes was chosen so to speak. I don't know. I apologize for my bad response to the perspective. Just wanted to deal with the music not the fame. Sorry Monk.
Originally Posted by monk
Sincerely,
Chuck
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10-23-2010 07:12 PM
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Chuck,
The world would be a very dull place if we all liked the same thing. You stood by your opinion and that's a fine thing, in my opinion.
I believe that Wes Montgomery became successful because he was great, not that he was great because he was successful. My references to various media were intended to demonstrate how high a profile Wes had as an artist, not only with musicians but with the general public.
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend Grant Green, Sharony Andrews Green's biography of her father-in-law. It's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread and is a worthwhile read.
If you want to deal with the music, listen to Wes' recordings on Riverside. They are no frills, pure jazz, small group settings that best demonstrate Wes' true artistry. Nat Adderlley's Work Song, also on Riverside, gives an excellent look at Wes as a sideman.
Respectfully,
monk
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I have that book and may need to reference it for clarity, but I believe it was mentioned that Grant's tone was an intentional attempt to seperate himself from the typical muted, wide bodied tones of his contemporaries.
I love them both. Wes is definitely more complex, but you have to admit, his solos tend to have the same formula of several chorus's of single note lines, to octaves, to block chords. His playing was perfectly suited to lead a string orchestra, while Grant's playing was more gritty and "street". Wes was Martin Luther King, while Grant was The Black Panthers. That's probably why so many hip hop artists continue to sample Grant as opposed to Wes. This is my own opinion and perspective, so feel free to disagree. Ultimately I'd rather spend my time practicing to be able to play like Wes, but every now and then, I want to cut loose and let it rip like Grant.
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Here is the answer to the threads question: he made really awesome music. end of the story!!!
the best songs i ever heard were written by so called "limited muscians" (this term is bullsh*t, btw). everybody is limited and its the creativity and the ability to handle with your limitations, which makes a good musician.
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Yeah, he swings like mad there. The older I get the more important that seems to me. Btw, in this clip, he seems to hold the pick way back under the middle of this thumb. Was he consistent with that grip? Just curious. Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
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+1 Originally Posted by Mace
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I know no one here is *slamming* BB King but I wanted to point out that what BB does so well is not as easy as it looks. He's a singer who sings solos (on his guitar--he's entirely *vocal* in his soloing). That's easier said than done. BB would be the first to say he has limited technical skills, but that doesn't mean all the players with better chops are better blues soloists.
Legions of players can play circles around him but they can't "sing" a note. BB's playing is never about "see how good I am" but always about "feel this!" And people do.
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I own 22 Grant Green albums (Amazon makes it waaaaaaay too easy to spend money lol). One of my all time favorites!
Lately I've been diggin' on 'Sunday Mornin'' again. I listen to a lot of modern guys as well but throwing on a GG record every now and again is like taking a nice deep breath of fresh mountain air. Cool and calming!
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First off, I love Grant Green. Period.
Now, the Wes vs GG might make some sense commercially, but they really played differently. Compare Airegins. They are simply different. I like them both. I have Wes's complete riverside box set. It is awesome. I also have 30+ GG albums. I also have 30+ Bill Evans, Miles, Coltrane, Wayne Shorter albums each... It's just good music. It's just a coincidence that Wes and GG both play the guitar. A musician is way more than his axe, IMHO.
Grant is the reason I really decided to study and play jazz. Charlie Christian was a close second, but now I know it was Grant. I got a crappy jazz box set that had two tracks from GG's Reaching Out on it. I was hooked. He made me feel like I could do it too in my own way, whereas listening to a true guitar virtoso made me feel left out and frustrated. It still does. I hate listening to guys go apeshit on the guitar just because they can. Generally the very best jazz guitarists are still lightyears behind the best horn/piano players IMHO, so why bother with mediocre virtuosity? Just my opinion, no worries.
Simple is deceptive. Miles is simple and complex, as we all agree. Grant was big into Miles and Charlie Christian. Grant has a great feel, raw tone, fearlessness, and could handle any music that Blue Note dropped in front of him in a personal way. Some of the songs were harmonically demanding; again, Airegin is a bitch to perform at a fast tempo. You cannot blues BS your way through those changes. He also played a tough George Russell tune on Solid.
My Favorite CDs are Matador, Solid, Idle Moments, Lee Morgan: Search for New Land, and Quartets w Clark. Reaching Out is fun too, though he is less developed as a player.
That said, I also understand that he might not suit everyones listening/learning needs. There are a lot of fish in the sea.
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Great post. When I read earlier in this thread that some thought Grant was simplistic harmonically and lacked the sophisticated use of extensions, I was miffed. What's that all about? There was a transcription offered as well that demonstrated quite the opposite and that went over everybody's head here. Hm. I guess there is all little bit of fantasy in people's perception regardless of the facts at hand. Originally Posted by JonnyPac
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Yup, and I was one of those chumps who thought he had GG summed up, but now realise that he was indeed a lot more sophisticated than many of us seemed to give him credit for. All of which makes me like him all the more, knowing that he obviously didn't mind pulling his head in much of the time. To be that restrained on so many dates when he could have tried to impress is quite impressive of itself.
Once again I have this forum to thank for that.
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I'm obviously late for most of the action on this thread but just wanted to add my appreciation for GG.
Like others who have already testified, he is the guy who got me into jazz guitar in the 1st place. It's the 'accessibility' of his playing to someone who came from a rock/blues/R'n'B background.
I agree that technically/harmonically he's not in the same league as some of the big hitters but really that's irrelevant when it comes to pure enjoyment of music, IMO.
For the record my fave albums, which I would recommend to any GG newbie, are 'Idle Moments' (the track 'Jean De Fleur' is an absolute hard-bop monster!), 'Solid' (features some of his most harmonically complex playing), 'Matador' and (and I can't believe no-one has mentioned this one yet), above all, 'Street Of Dreams'.
Plus, as a sideman, Lee Morgan's 'Search For The New Land' and Hank Mobley's 'Workout'.
I also agree about his tone being something that makes him more memorable. Whereas many players have that restrained, uber-clean, muffled tone, GG has always had that extra crispness/grit which was fairly unique back then (and still is nowadays in actual fact).
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I felt so strongly about this thread I registered hahaha... first and only posting, comparing the merits of GG to WM is like trying to say Picasso is better than Michelangelo... impossible..
Both are awesome players... (likely prodigy status) I suppose the defining thing is that they were both supremely gifted but in different ways... I am a guitarist of many years and whilst I occasionally find GGs lack of chording/comping frustrating.. I would sell one of my organs to be able to play with the flair and invention he has.. the fluency is astonishing, i have plenty of his Music and the variation of this invention is gobsmacking... I hear a very low % of duplication... it is a unique voice...
Another essential is that both these guys learnt from the vernacular rather than the 1000s of primers that are available now... which speaks volumes..
Mike
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Welcome to the forum Mike. One of the first jazz guitar albums I owned was Green's recording debut, "All the Gin is Gone" by Jimmy Forrest. (These sessions have recently been repackaged as Grant Green album(s))
I loved him at the time. The simple clean playing was, well, it was like music to my ears. He phoned a coupla albums in, during the late 60s and 70s, but so did Wes towards the end of his career - the A&M albums are particularly saccharine and soporific.
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I'm coming in late here, but my $02:
Both Wes and GG are great players. But to my ears (IMHO, this is subjective opinion) while GG had great tone and feel, he lacked the melodic creativity that Wes did.
I like GG, I have several of the albums with Mobley and his solo albums. They are great, but GG lacked the magic that Wes had.
As far as Wes' cheesy later albums, that is just him trying to make some money and reach a wider audience. I don't fault him or think less of him because of that.
Peace,
Kevin
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I finished reading this book recently; in fact I bought it because Mr. B mentions it here and I hadn't heard of it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
It's called "Grant Green: Rediscovering The Forgotten Genius Of Jazz Guitar" and is by Sharony Andrews Green, the ex-wife of one of Grant's sons. Since this thread has some new comments, I figured it's a good idea to give it a mention.
I found it informative and it has an extensive discography.
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I don't think less of him and I understand why he did it - those were lean times for Jazz. In the mid 60s even Ella Fitzgerald didn't have a record contract. However, we are also consumers and I'm always prepared to call a turd a turd. Everyone turns in a not-so-good album eventually. I have probably 20 Kenny Burrell albums but I thought the "Guitar" album sucked. Howard Roberts' "Antelope Freeway" was rubbish, and Ben Monder should have been prosecuted for "Flux." Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
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Hey, I'm not saying that I like those albums. I just think that we can't think less of his "quality" albums because of them (no that you're saying that.) Originally Posted by Banksia
Peace,
Kevin
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I own more Grant Green albums than WM. Green was more consistent. Better rhythm section.... better song selections. I also prefer Green's guitar tone.
GG - albums (5)
WM - albums (2)
I especially like Grant Green's Matador album w/Elvin Jones!!
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Yeah - more consistent in that he always played the same licks. Originally Posted by Stratocaster
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Wes did some very great, very inventive things, but if you think for one second that he wasn't a lick-based player then you're fooling yourself. Originally Posted by FatJeff
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You didn't mention which albums you have, but I don't think there is a better song selection than on WG's "The Incredible Jazz Guitar Of". And considering that they both used the top rhythm section guys you can ever dream of, i'd say you just need to buy more records by both of them! And on vinyl, seriously! Originally Posted by Stratocaster
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I am not too familiar with Grant Green. However, I am aware of a great solo he laid down on a tune by Lou Donaldson. The song is Foggy Day and his solo on this track a fantastic. I stumbled on it searching I-tunes one night. Check it out, especially if you are a Grant Green doubter.
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If you don't dig Grant Green, I'm pretty sure you're stuffed with straw and being controlled by an evil puppet master from beyond the grave.
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Then I must be a reanimated scarecrow. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
If you don't dig Grant Green, I'm pretty sure you're stuffed with straw and being controlled by an evil puppet master from beyond the grave.
I've spoken before why I don't care for GG's playing all that much. It's just a personal preference. I was reacting to the statements made by Stratocaster that were passed off as fact.
Some people may PREFER GG's tone, or time-feel, or rhythm section, or song selections, but to say that GG was BETTER at these things than WM is ridiculous. It's all opinion-based. How does one quantify "consistency" in improvisation, anyway?
For the record, I have probably 6 GG albums, maybe 8 WM albums, and I try to listen to each new one I get with an open mind. In some cases I'm surprised, but for the most part, I still prefer WM.
I do love GG's rendition of "Sunday Morning."
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