Grant Green - can someone explain his popularity

**ChuckCorbis** · 10-17-2010, 10:56 PM

This right here is "HYPERBOLE" folks. Please. Nice, neat and full of BALONEY. You can't package GRANT GREEN into a wikipedia rant or google exercise. That's just nonsense. Pre-packaged, lazy, 2010 internet bullshit. Everyone here needs to LISTEN to Grant Green. Historical perspective. Please. Who is the author of that HISTORICAL(histerical) PERSPECTIVE?

Originally Posted by monk

Perhaps a bit of historical perspective is in order.

Due to his commercial success with A&M Records and Top 40 radio airplay for Windy, Wes had a very high media profile in the mid-to-late 60s. He was all over TV (The Tonight Show, Merv Griffin Show, Mike Douglas Show, Hollywood Palace).

Unlike many jazz guitarists who preceded and followed him, Wes had sufficient TV & radio exposure to the extent that John & Jane Doe actually knew who he was and knew the regard in which he was held. In addition, guitarists of all genres were talking about him . Wes Montgomery became the single best known jazz guitarist of all time.

It also needs to be understood that while rock was in its ascendency at this time, the major singers of the 40s & and 50s were still a force to be reckoned with on Top 40 radio and they routinely used jazz guitarists on their recordings. Also, these singers had much higher television profiles than the rock acts.

Coupled with the fact that nearly all the aforementioned talk shows had orchestras that employed "name" jazz guitarists; the sound of jazz guitar had not yet faded in the consciousness of the general public. In the midst of all this stood Wes Montgomery overshadowing everyone including Grant Green.

Looking back at articles & interviews in music magazines from that time, GG was considered to be a workman-like guitarist in the Christian tradition. In spite of all the work he did at Blue Note, he was considered to be just one of the guys but not special in the way that Lang, Reinhardt, Christian & Montgomery were.

Even in death, Wes overshadowed Green. Careful reading of interviews with Green will reveal a subtext of frustration at being overlooked in favor of not only Montgomery but young upstart George Benson as well.
Life was not kind to Grant Green. He spent most of it futilely trying to achieve the acclaim and financial success that Wes enjoyed. The ensuing years since his death have seen Green's stock rise considerably and he has received some of the attention that eluded him in life. Nonetheless, he will always suffer in comparison to Montgomery.

Respectfully,
monk

**princeplanet** · 10-17-2010, 11:07 PM

Although I can share/understand your frustration at wiki style info chunks, just where is the "baloney" part in Monk's post? Seemed kinda fair to me.....

**ChuckCorbis** · 10-17-2010, 11:26 PM

The BALONEY is the over intellectualized HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE that was I assumed authored by Monk or some other Jazz historian or critic who like Wynton Marsalis want to pawn off there perceptions as truth. When this is only their opinion.

**princeplanet** · 10-18-2010, 01:36 AM

So what are the questionable opinions being offered as facts?

**mr. beaumont** · 10-18-2010, 07:46 AM

I've read Green's biography, written by his daughter in law with help from his sons.

Monk's comments are pretty much spot on concerning GG's career. George Benson is also interviewed in the book, and he cites Grant as his biggest influence.

Nobody's making stuff up here.

**paynow** · 10-18-2010, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I've read Green's biography, written by his daughter in law with help from his sons.

Monk's comments are pretty much spot on concerning GG's career. George Benson is also interviewed in the book, and he cites Grant as his biggest influence.

Nobody's making stuff up here.

Yet another bio for me to read. Thanks; I wasn't aware there was one.

Found a link on Amazon for anyone else who is interested:

Amazon.com: Grant Green: Rediscovering the Forgotten Genius of Jazz Guitar (9780879306984): Sharony Andrews Green: Books

**musicalbodger** · 10-18-2010, 09:40 AM

That's interesting, Mr B, I wasn't aware of a biography. Thanks for mentioning it.

I've read Green's biography, written by his daughter in law with help from his sons.

George Benson is also interviewed in the book, and he cites Grant as his biggest influence.

I'm throwing this in here, not to make any point at all, except, as an example of how fickle "history" can be.

This morning I went on to Benson's website and also checked out some other biog material on him — Grant Green doesn't get a mention. He cites Wes, Charlie Parker, Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt and Hank Garland as his influences.

Probably a case of "the suits" not thinking GG worthy of mention.

**FatJeff** · 10-18-2010, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

This right here is "HYPERBOLE" folks. Please. Nice, neat and full of BALONEY. You can't package GRANT GREEN into a wikipedia rant or google exercise. That's just nonsense. Pre-packaged, lazy, 2010 internet bullshit. Everyone here needs to LISTEN to Grant Green. Historical perspective. Please. Who is the author of that HISTORICAL(histerical) PERSPECTIVE?

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

The BALONEY is the over intellectualized HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE that was I assumed authored by Monk or some other Jazz historian or critic who like Wynton Marsalis want to pawn off there perceptions as truth. When this is only their opinion.

Wow. You sure got some chip on your shoulder re: GG, don't you?

**princeplanet** · 10-18-2010, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

That's interesting, Mr B, I wasn't aware of a biography. Thanks for mentioning it.
I'm throwing this in here, not to make any point at all, except, as an example of how fickle "history" can be.

This morning I went on to Benson's website and also checked out some other biog material on him — Grant Green doesn't get a mention. He cites Wes, Charlie Parker, Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt and Hank Garland as his influences.

Probably a case of "the suits" not thinking GG worthy of mention.

Hank Garland? Gee that's pretty interesting if true. Poor Hank, did he ever do much more on the guitar after the car accident in the early 60's?

**Solo Flight** · 10-18-2010, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

The BALONEY is the over intellectualized HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE that was I assumed authored by Monk or some other Jazz historian or critic who like Wynton Marsalis want to pawn off there perceptions as truth. When this is only their opinion.

Seems like you're confusing opinions with history. I thought Monk's historical perspective was a welcome reminder of what was going on at the time to help explain why GG wasn't better known or acclaimed as opposed to Wes. Totally apart from playing ability, etc. Popular music and jazz are full of stories about being at the right place at the right time - or not being there - that explain a lot about who goes on to stardom and who is left virtually unknown.

**ChuckCorbis** · 10-18-2010, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Wow. You sure got some chip on your shoulder re: GG, don't you?

Grant Green had a great career and was a tremendous contributor to the evolution of Jazz Guitar. I didn't like the feel sorry for tone of Monk's synopsis of his Legacy. GG should be celebrated here, not picked apart and rated and compared to Wes. That's all. Sorry for the chip. Yeah I do have a chip on my shoulder about disrespect and a flippant attitude towards under appreciated musicians like Grant Green. Especially when this is the JAZZ GUITAR FORUM and we are talking about our mentors.

**musicalbodger** · 10-18-2010, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

Grant Green had a great career and was a tremendous contributor to the evolution of Jazz Guitar. I didn't like the feel sorry for tone of Monk's synopsis of his Legacy. GG should be celebrated here, not picked apart and rated and compared to Wes. That's all. Sorry for the chip. Yeah I do have a chip on my shoulder about disrespect and a flippant attitude towards under appreciated musicians like Grant Green. Especially when this is the JAZZ GUITAR FORUM and we are talking about our mentors.

Hey Chuck, criticism doesn't mean lack of respect and respect doesn't rule out criticism. There's been much respect for GG on this thread, which I started because, in 43 years of listening to jazz, I have never understood his appeal. Most of those who've taken the trouble to point me to some of his good stuff have nothing but respect fro the man, but, that doesn't mean you can't criticise aspects of the man or his playing.

**Little Jay** · 10-18-2010, 01:33 PM

Being critical - yet open to sugestion - is not the same as critisizing! And I think m-bodger kept an open mind throughout!

But here is a nice link I like to share: From Grant Green to B.B. King to T-Bone Walker: Consistent approaches to the blues

(Somehow that BB King keeps on popping up....

)

**monk** · 10-18-2010, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

This right here is "HYPERBOLE" folks. Please. Nice, neat and full of BALONEY. You can't package GRANT GREEN into a wikipedia rant or google exercise. That's just nonsense. Pre-packaged, lazy, 2010 internet bullshit. Everyone here needs to LISTEN to Grant Green. Historical perspective. Please. Who is the author of that HISTORICAL(histerical) PERSPECTIVE?

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

The BALONEY is the over intellectualized HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE that was I assumed authored by Monk or some other Jazz historian or critic who like Wynton Marsalis want to pawn off there perceptions as truth. When this is only their opinion.

I have been playing guitar for 44 years.

I saw Wes Montgomery on television and listened to him on radio. I bought Wes Montgomery and Grant Green albums on vinyl. I read the reviews of their albums and live perfomances as well as the interviews they gave to music magazines. In other words, I was there.

The information in my post is fact, not opinion. Nothing I wrote was prepackaged or derived from the internet, Google or Wikipedia.

The only "baloney" here is your own attempt to foist off your opinion as fact. Whether you like it or agree with it, what I wrote was the truth and I stand by every word of it.

Regards,
monk

**JohnW400** · 10-18-2010, 03:14 PM

I have an album where a lot of prominent players (including his son) cover his originals. It has Ed Cherry, Dave Stryker and a *I think* Russel Malone or Mark Whitfield. (I have to dig it out tonight and check).

The liner notes even comment about the lack of commercial success Green had when compared to his contemporaries if I recall correctly, (been awhile so I may be off).

Definetely an album to check out.

**musicalbodger** · 10-18-2010, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Being critical - yet open to sugestion - is not the same as critisizing! And I think m-bodger kept an open mind throughout!

(Somehow that BB King keeps on popping up....

)

Thanks for that, Little Jay. Appreciate your perception of where I'm coming from. Funnily enough, I didn't think that Chuck was having a go at me in his post, I was defending others.

And BB can pop up as much as he likes — always time for a bit of tasty guitar. Now T-Bone..... there's a seminal influence. Not necessarily on jazz, but.... who cares?

**ChuckCorbis** · 10-18-2010, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Please. I know the guy can groove but I find his playing very limited harmonically and not very imaginative.

We started here and ended up with Monk's historical perspective which although it was factual included a detailed explanation(opinion) as to why Wes Montgomery made it financially and Grant Green didn't. That's my problem. Why do historians and jazz buffs equate success in Jazz with money? We're Artists not bankers. The whole comparison to Wes' financial success is unnecessary and distasteful.

**JohnW400** · 10-18-2010, 11:02 PM

Ok I rechecked the CD. It's called A Tribute To Grant Green. It has Greg Green, Peter Bernstein, both Russel Malone and Mark Whitfireld and Ed Cherry as well as Dave Stryker.

It's a great album. Only GG compositions.

The liner note ar ewritten by Jim Ferguson. I'll quote something relevant from them.

"Grant seemed to be overshadowed by the more vituosic approaches of players like Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell and Joe Pass"

However you have to look at who's on the album paying tribute. (Larry Goldings and Idris Muhammad make up the rythm section)

These guys thought enough of GG's playing to make this CD.

I like the Album Green Street. It's a little sparse at times but sometimes that's a good thing. You don't always have to play all the extensions and tons of chords to say anything

**princeplanet** · 10-19-2010, 02:52 AM

From my limited listening, I hear 2 GG's, one is the jazz tinged bluesman and the other is the blues tinged jazzman. I know many players blur the same line, but honestly, GG can sound like 2 distinctly different players, even on the same album! Does anyone else sense this? If so, any explanation for this?
Btw, he composed some beautiful ballads didn't he, what was the one that Snoop or Dre ripped off a while back?

**Solo Flight** · 10-19-2010, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

We started here and ended up with Monk's historical perspective which although it was factual included a detailed explanation(opinion) as to why Wes Montgomery made it financially and Grant Green didn't. That's my problem. Why do historians and jazz buffs equate success in Jazz with money? We're Artists not bankers. The whole comparison to Wes' financial success is unnecessary and distasteful.

No one was saying Wes was a better guitarist because he made more money. But understanding the context in which jazz artists lived and played helps explain why certain artists were/are more popular than others and why jazz guitar buffs make a "fuss" over artists who are relatively unknown to the public. Historians and jazz buffs are hardly doing any disservice to players like Grant Green to point out why he never got the attention he should have. On the contrary, it's usually the jazz historians who highlight the players that got passed over by the big record companies, etc. I happen to like history - for example, the accounts of what 52nd street was like in it's heyday are fascinating.As to whom you like better, Grant Green or Wes, that's a matter of personal taste. As to who had more influence on future artists, that's a bit more complicated and requires close dissection of styles as well as relying on interviews, etc. But let's not equate historical context with accusations that anyone is equating financial success with one's artistic worth.

**ChuckCorbis** · 10-22-2010, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Fine with me. I don't really like George Benson's playing all that much either. Guess I better not bother playing guitar anymore.

**Jazzyteach65** · 10-22-2010, 11:57 AM

I think for his amp/guitar tone alone he was celebrated. I would kill for the secret serttings on his amp for that thick, cutting tone, and I'm not alone.

**max_power** · 10-22-2010, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

I think for his amp/guitar tone alone he was celebrated. I would kill for the secret serttings on his amp for that thick, cutting tone, and I'm not alone.

Boost the mid-range, lower treble and bass (whereas most jazz guys boost the bass).

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-22-2010, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by max_power

Boost the mid-range, lower treble and bass (whereas most jazz guys boost the bass).

My amp doesn't have a mid-range pot?!

Is there a particular amp associated with GG? Maybe a Tweed Twin?

**randalljazz** · 10-22-2010, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

My amp doesn't have a mid-range pot?!

Is there a particular amp associated with GG? Maybe a Tweed Twin?

according to wolf marshall, he favored an ampeg combo, and one of the fender tweeds ("most likely a late 1950's pro, bandmaster or bassman"). later (in the '70's) he used a gibson les paul lp-12 with four 12's and two 10 inch horns.