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There are musicians all through the history of jazz that were known to be lousy people, like Chet Baker, Art Pepper, Stan Getz, the list goes on and on.
I read once that producer Orrin Keepnews said he didn't want to sign Miles to Riverside because he was just such a person.
Fair enough but if I limited my record collection to the good ones my collection would be much smaller and I'd be missing out on a lot of great music. Granted I didn't have to deal w those guys but I've encountered some jerks along the way.
Not trying to absolve them but there's lousy people in all walks of life. Unfortunate but it is what it is.
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03-09-2026 12:39 PM
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Truer words were never spoken. I don't curate my musical taste and its manifestations on this basis. But I've turned down gigs, refused to hire sidemen, and refused to deal with more than a few buyers and sellers because I don't want to work, play, or do business with lousy people when there are good folks around who need and deserve the support. Like Paul Newman's character said in the movie Harper, cream and bastards rise.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
Love him or hate him, there are no substitutes for Miles. I love his music and I have a fairly complete collection of his vinyl. But Miles was always a jerk.
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I would defend him as one could defend anyone they don’t know who created music which had highly motivated them.
Duane Allman was quoted as saying he listened to KOB daily for two years, his comment lead me to the recording.
Yes Miles Davis came from an upwardly mobile, professional African-American family that W.E.B. Du Bois would call the talented tenth. His family still had to suffer the slings and arrows of Jim Crow America. Maybe worse to get that treatment as high achievers.
When Miles gets dragged the first thing I usually think of is when he walked out of his Birdland gig in NYC to put a white woman friend in a cab and was told by a white cop to move along. When Miles pointed out his name was on the marquee he was beaten and arrested. I won’t post the pics, easy to find.
I feel lucky to have heard him on the Pangea tour.
Electrifying and there was no doubt I was in the presence of greatness.Last edited by Aiq; 03-09-2026 at 07:53 PM.
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I never met Davis and can only judge him by what others have said about him and what he has said about himself. That evidence presents a strange and contradictory picture. His autobiography is full of admissions of cruelty and transgression. A fair amount of it struck me as exaggerated for effect, fwiw, but who knows?. He also said pretty nasty things about a lot of the people he played with, but most of them have never had anything but positive things to say about him. Some of the harshest invective in the autobiography is reserved for Cicely Tyson. Who knows what to make of that?
Regarding the whole playing with his back to the audience thing, I saw him a couple of times in the early '80s (with the We Want Miles band). Life altering (for me), brilliant performances. I can't fathom why anyone cares about where he stood or takes it as directed at them. I think the only thing a musician owes the audience is music. My suspicion is that the public persona was just that, and I don't infer a whole lot about where he stood on the asshole->saint spectrum from it.
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Where is that kid now? Did he go home and practice? Does he still play? Did Davis destroy him?
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Reality is if you try to run a band and take the nice guy route 100% of the time you are probably not an actual bandleader or you just won't have a decent band or a band at all. It's a job. To do it even semi successfully you have to be somewhat impersonal or seemingly cold at times, and in the eyes of the guys who are not worth working with, it makes you a dickhead according to them. At times being a jerk with certain people is a tactical decision made so that other people not worth working with hear about it, and are warded off, which can save future headaches. In most working groups it's a poor practice to become to chummy with the people you hire because many musicians will use it to take liberties. I guess I'm fortunate to be in my current situation after many many headaches but no situation is without some degree of problems.
It reminds me of the Buddy Rich tapes. Look at some of the youtube comments....the hobbyists all call him an asshole for those remarks but how many guys does a bandleader like that let into his group only to have them start coasting or riding the coattails of what he built through tons of work and personal sacrifice of his own? There are many nuanced details to every interpersonal interaction. No bandleader will ever be beloved by everyone he has worked with. That's just part of the job description.
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Originally Posted by DawgBone
Even if I accepted your premise (which I absolutely do not), it's not carte blanche to treat everyone in the world that way. How does stealing money from bandmates help anything? And if you think it's necessary to behave that way toward your parents, siblings, spouse, fellow musicians etc just to keep your edgy personality sharp, here's some news - It's not.
If you have to be an abrasive, obnoxious SOB to get your band to do what you want them to do, you're not much of a leader.
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LOL As usual you take some kind of issue with what I post. Where did I mention anything about stealing money from bandmates? Where did I say I treat parents, siblings, spouse, fellow musicians with a sharp personality? I didn't. You said it. If you think I implied it then I guess you thought wrong. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
On the flip side if you are a new hire for tonight's gig I'm gonna be your bandleader, not your friend. You show up late, too drunk or too high, stinking like a pig, or playing like trash I might dock your pay or send you home empty handed and no, I won't feel bad about it. Expecting professionalism from other professionals isn't expecting too much. Sometimes messages to other problem musicians are transmitted best through actions taken with the problem musicians you at times are forced to deal with. Don't make more of it than that. The end.
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These are all things that Miles did regularly and repeatedly for many years. Defending his bad behavior on the grounds that he had to be like that to keep his band in line may not be what you were trying to do. But you did it, which is ridiculous IMO. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Cicely Tyson saved his ass and probably his life. She was far better to him than he deserved, yet he bad mouthed her in his autobiography. He stole money from this father and his band mates. He was rude and obnoxious to far more people than "just" his sidemen. Being "...somewhat impersonal or seemingly cold at times" is a very charitable description of Miles' behavior towards everyone, not just his sidemen. Maybe it was the drugs talking - but the drugs probably just turned all his filters off.
"In the eyes of the guys who are not worth working with, it makes you a dickhead according to them." It makes you a dickhead...period. If you can't say "no" without being perceived as a dickhead, you need help. "At times being a jerk with certain people is a tactical decision made so that other people not worth working with hear about it, and are warded off, which can save future headaches"???? Do you actually believe that being a dickhead will keep all but the best sidemen from joining your band?
Being a jerk is rarely a tactical decision. It's most often the default behavior mode of those who can't solve their problems more productively. You're trying to justify it, and I don't think that's possible. A jerk is a jerk, a dickhead is a dickhead, and I've never met anyone who could turn it on and off. I've worked for many bandleaders who were complete ladies or gentlemen. They had great control over the band and had the complete respect of every member. MIles was a dickhead, and there was no excuse for much of his bad behavior.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 03-09-2026 at 09:14 PM.
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I love it that discussions and debates over disagreeable personality traits wind up being more important than the music itself. The legacy a person creates.
It's like all those YouTube videos that get all those followers over what actors nobody wants to work with anymore.
I guess it's cathartic to talk about how much we are repulsed by Miles Davis's personality. But on the plus side, at least he wasn't out on the golf course when he should have been making music.
I know somebody who played with Miles. He holds that the world is a better place for his time doing what he did.
I'll tell you one thing, the better a musician I'm becoming, the more I appreciate his musical mind. But then again, I guess I spend more time listening to recordings ' learning brevity, than reading biographies.
Just listening to the Plugged Nickel sessions. I'm not hearing anything but a lesson in musical possibility. In the end, this is his legacy.
I'm wondering... why isn't there a thread on whether Lee Morgen was an asshole?
Why not another thread on what a drag Monk was to those around him who had to take care of him?
Could we start a thread on Bud Powell and how could he not just be nicer?
I went to a Sarah Vaughn concert. She sang two songs, obviously drunk, cursed out the audience. Can we have a thread on what an asshole Sarah Vaughn was?
In the end, what's really important in the story of the music?
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You are welcome to your thoughts, off base as they may or may not be. It doesn't really matter. What I can say is that almost every time you reply to me seems to be only to go on the attack about what I am doing wrong. Whether it's with a trumpet, or as a bandleader, or some other topic. I've tried but I'm less and less inclined to heed anything you have to say because of the way you say it. You rant here about not needing to be a jerk, and say that's it's rarely a tactical decision, yet here you are unloading on me, again. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I've had the same group of guys together since 2018 save for the guitarist who started in '23 and a keys player I started hiring two years ago for gigs that pay well enough I can afford it. I always split the pay and tips equally and a sideman always has a gig with me unless there are mitigating circumstances. My thoughts there being if I think you might affect my ability to put food in my kid's mouth because of your actions I have no problem dealing with you in any manner I see fit. If that makes me a jerk I'm fine with that because opinions are something I ask for when I want them, not something I will really care about when offered unsolicited. Please consider that when responding to me in the future. Thanks.
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It's funny in American culture such an emphasis on being 'nice', which most of the time don't mean anything. If people greet you 'heyyy how are you?' 'how have you been?' they really don't mean for you telling them your true story, you just say 'great' and smile, that's the protocol, and everyone is happy. In music, they say, 'hey man, sound great!' which more often then not people are being nice to you, they might not mean it, they might not even like you, they will say it anyway to be a 'good' guy.
First time I visited US, I went to a jam and that's what I heard from people, I was like damn, I must be good! I told my dad, who lived there for many years already how people love my playing and I will defenitely come to live here and have success. He just laughed and said, you're naive son, they are being nice to you, that's all. Of course later I was quick to reralize the only true compliment from other musicians when they ask your phone number and call you later for a gig.
Personally, I value being genuine much more than being nice. Nice can be fake, and sometimes it's just another form of being an asshole in disguise. Miles to me was a genuine person.
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Sounds like he was a genuine jerk, for sure. If not for his genius, would he have even made it as a professional musician, being the person he was? Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Yes, sometimes he was a jerk, who isn't? The example you posted is not the case though, not in my book. Originally Posted by ruger9
As far as profesional musicians, oh my friend, you have no idea. It's a snake pit, even genuinely nice peoplle can be assholes when needed to be, or you can't survive there.
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Perspective.
This from a friend who was there, waiting in the wings.
The show was about to start. The sidemen on one side of the stage, off stage. Miles finding his space on the opposite side. It was known that Miles treasured this time in still water before the show; it was as much a part of the show as anything he would play-a calm before a storm.
Some guy had been given an access pass and had pushed himself to the sideman wing. "Where's Miles! Where's Miles?!" and they looked at him like "Hello?"
One of the guys nodded across the stage and the others broke in insistently "No Don't go there! Don't go over there!" but the guy crossed the stage, put his arm on Miles who was warming up with his back to the world.
"Miles! Miles! I... I think you're GREAT!"
And Miles turned around, looked at him and rasped: "You SO STUPID" and it was heard across the stage.
The guy was genuinely shocked.
And I'll bet to this day he spreads stories about what an asshole Miles Davis is.
I'd bet on it.
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I expect very little from people on the whole, and I'm delighted to say they largely exceed my expectations. Don't readjust your expectations though...
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In the ‘Inside Scofield’ film John Scofield tells how he was playing in a club in his early days in NYC when he spotted Miles in the audience, so he went over to his table and started gushing ‘Oh Miles, you’re my absolute hero, you’re the greatest, I’ve got all your records etc. etc.’
Miles just looked at him and said ‘Shut the fuck up!’
But of course later he invited John to join his band.
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I think Miles came to this jazz club specifically to listen to John and then invite him to work with the band. Originally Posted by grahambop
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I agree with you - "genuine" has advantages over empty niceness, the first being that you know where you stand with genuine. But "nice" just means pleasant, agreeable, etc. The words genuine, honest, well intentioned etc do not appear in any definition. The opposite of nice is nasty (or mean, or disagreeable etc). Give me nice people who are also genuine, open, and honest in their interactions with me. Nice but deceitful, hurtful, or otherwise malevolent people abound - and I prefer to avoid them. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I believe that Miles was genuine in his interactions with most people most of the time. He just wasn't very nice about it, and he was apparently quite unpleasant very often to many people. I also don't care that much about unpleasantness. What I can't abide is dishonesty, ill will, malevolence, etc. It's just far better in my mind to be nice and pleasant about things than to be nasty.
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Einstein was an absolute bastard to his first wife. We never talk about that when we refer to someone as an Einstein.
But I guess it's relative.
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We can hang. Originally Posted by John A.
...but, fwiw, there's an enormous thread over on another musician's forum I frequent about whether we as music performers are obligated to consider "showmanship" (in whatever form it may take), and Ho. Lee. Crap. there are apparently a lot of musicians who wouldn't wanna hang with you and me.
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That is funny! Gotta appreciate his sense of humor. Originally Posted by grahambop
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I'm not "unloading" on you. The only reason I've responded to the posts you mention is that I believe you've espoused ideas in them that are absolutely counterproductive for others to emulate. I'm one of the oldest participants on this forum, and (along with many others like me here) have enough experience to be of some help to the young 'uns reading it all and trying to learn from it. We've made many mistakes in our collective careers, and I for one would like to help those following us avoid at least a few of them. Originally Posted by DawgBone
You may in fact be different from the rest of us in being able to benefit from doing things that worked out badly for most of us. But I can't let what I think is terrible advice go unchallenged in front of so many younger guitarists trying to become better players. Many on this forum are just beginning to play outside the home. Many are looking forward to joining bands. Some are starting their own bands. I suspect that more posts are entered looking for help or advice of some kind than for any other purpose. I don't think you've been very helpful with advice like " being a jerk with certain people is a tactical decision made so that other people not worth working with hear about it, and are warded off, which can save future headaches".
I and most of the sources you'll find on the beloved internet) believe strongly that you can't go from novice to Rafael Mendez on the trumpet in 6 months. I know because I've tried. We know that you won't ensure that only great and obedient players will want to join your band if you're a dickhead to those you don't like. Twins are great amps - I have one now and have owned 3 others. They're just not practical or useful for most guitarists today. Calling us all wimps and suggesting that we're not "real men" because we don't feel like dragging Twins around is not helpful advice. etc etc etc. If all this stuff works for you, great! But I and many others on this forum think a lot of what you throw at us is not good advice. Maybe if you said it a bit more "nicely", with a disclaimer that it may not be right for everyone but that it works for you, it'd be helpful.
The blues band from which I retired last year was 17 years old. The bass player was with us from the beginning, and we had the same drummer for the last 15 years. I've been playing with the bass player in my jazz trio for about 40 years and the drummer for about 30. My house band at the club from which I retired (g-b-d jazz trio with tenor when needed) was together for about 9 years, with the same drummer and bass player (with whom I've been working in various groups for over 30). My MO is 180 degrees from yours. I must be doing somthing right.
You have a lot to share and offer. Please try to do so with some regard and respect for those of us who do things differently from you. If you want to be thought of as a dickhead by most of the musicians in Austin, be my guest. But it's not generally accepted as the best way to build a career.
Miles was always a jerk. He was also one of the most important and accomplished musicians in history. I don't think he needed to be a dickhead to become Miles Davis.
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I don't understand the lines being drawn toward relationships with and anecdotes about others that are famous. The variable isn't fame. It's drugs.
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Was Miles Davis always a jerk? Of course not. Like the rest of us mere mortals, Miles Davis was human and had a good and bad side. We have all had our bad moments, Miles was no different.
I have read the Davis autobiography “Miles” with journalist Quincy Troupe, the biography “Milestones: The Music and Times of Miles Davis” written by author Jack Chambers, “Kind of Blue: The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece” by author Ashley Kahn, read and watched many interviews with Miles and the musicians who played with him. The thing I noticed that was first and most talked about was the music and Miles being a good band leader. The darker side of Miles only enters the conversation when pushed or asked directly.
Sensationalism sells and people love dirt. Journalism started pushing the “dark side” of Miles when he started turning his back to the audience sometimes when playing. Mostly Caucasian patrons, critics, and journalists were outraged that an African American would turn his back on them during a performance. Miles Davis didn’t follow the rules of the time and received a lot of negative press for it.
I would think that Miles Davis’ music, bands, and the sidemen that played with him would be a better account of Davis’ daily demeanor. The list of young musicians that Davis scouted, hired, and nurtured into outstanding musicians, leaders on their chosen instruments, and band leaders themselves is impressive. Let’s see:
1) Julian “Cannonball” Adderly
2) John Coltrane
3) Bill Evans
4) Wayne Shorter
5) Herbie Hancock
6) Joe Zawinul
7) Tony Williams
8) Billy Cobham
9) Wynton Kelly
10) John McLaughlin
11) John Scofield being a few. The levels of musicianship, music played, and success of so many sidemen speaks well for Miles Davis. He clearly wasn’t afraid to take chances and/or let his sidemen take chances also. Davis valued a musician who had their own sound and encouraged them in developing their sound.
Along with all of this, Davis was constantly pushing his music in new directions in his prime decades.
Cool, Modal, Fusion are but three jazz genres that he helped to usher in. Miles Davis also brought space to the music. He was one of the first to break away from the note and chord barrage of bebop and let the notes breathe again.
I never met the man or had interactions with him so I can only speak on what I have heard and read about him. He suffered with drug addiction throughout much of his adult life, which led to the dark days of him stealing from friends and band mates. It seems that when he was deep in his use of heroin was when he was as low as he could go. Though it ultimately all falls on Mile, as it should, heroin often leads to a life of theft and desperation.
So, was Miles a jerk? The answer is: sometimes. But sometimes, aren’t we all. Miles Davis’ legacy is his music, not how well he got along with others. The music remains long after the musicians who made it are gone. Just listen to the music.
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